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Conflict in the Middle East

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ScrollingLeaves · 03/09/2024 23:05

@Miffylou Netanyahu rejects a two state solution.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68045247

Last July the Knesset voted against it.
www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/france-pans-knesset-vote-against-palestinian-state-ben-gvirs-visit-to-temple-mount/

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:04

It is a false notion that is presented on here, that only Netanyahu and a couple of ministers are extremists.

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:02

@Miffylou it's not just Netanyahu. From 77 members, 68 voted against a Palestinan state. That should tell you all you need to know.

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:57

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 22:46

@SharonEllis why do you always minimise? It is not true that very few people don't want the Palestinians to have a state. It was not very long ago - I believe only a month or so ago that the overwhelming majority of the Israeli knesset voted AGAINST the Palestinians having their own state.
Does @Miffylou honestly think that the Israeli government will willingly accept a two state solution when all they do is steal more land every month?

At the moment, no. But in the long term, with a new Israeli leader and enough cast-iron guarantees from the international community that the security of Israel would be protected and defended, yes.

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 22:54

https://conquer-and-divide.btselem.org/

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Scirocco · 03/09/2024 22:53

SharonEllis · 03/09/2024 22:43

Who is denying Palestinians right to statehood? Who? The only people I come across on these threads who dont believe on a two state solution are those supporting 'from thd river to tje sea' for Palestinians & calling Israel colonisers.

Well, there's quite a bit of denial of statehood going on in the Occupied Territories at the moment, and the Knesset recently voted to oppose any two-state solution. "From the river to the sea" has been used as a slogan for elected poitical representatives' vision of a single-state solution which requires the completion of the erasure of Palestine.

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Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:47

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 22:37

Over half a century of persecution, forcible removal from their homes, genocidal rhetoric, denial of self-determination and their homeland... Surely these things should be unacceptable regardless of what religious group or ethnicity is suffering them. The existence of other Arab countries does not give justification for the erasure of Palestine and Palestinians.

"Other nationalities are available" type approaches are offensive. Would it be ok to tell a white Christian English person that it's ok for England to be occupied and denied its statehood because there are other countries where Christianity is the most prevalent religion and where there are lots of white people? If not, then why should it be deemed acceptable to say the equivalent to anyone of a different ethnicity, nationality and faith?

Do you approve of a two-state solution? Do you think it is reasonable for Jews to have a country of their own anywhere in the world?

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 22:46

@SharonEllis why do you always minimise? It is not true that very few people don't want the Palestinians to have a state. It was not very long ago - I believe only a month or so ago that the overwhelming majority of the Israeli knesset voted AGAINST the Palestinians having their own state.
Does @Miffylou honestly think that the Israeli government will willingly accept a two state solution when all they do is steal more land every month?

SharonEllis · 03/09/2024 22:43

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 22:37

Over half a century of persecution, forcible removal from their homes, genocidal rhetoric, denial of self-determination and their homeland... Surely these things should be unacceptable regardless of what religious group or ethnicity is suffering them. The existence of other Arab countries does not give justification for the erasure of Palestine and Palestinians.

"Other nationalities are available" type approaches are offensive. Would it be ok to tell a white Christian English person that it's ok for England to be occupied and denied its statehood because there are other countries where Christianity is the most prevalent religion and where there are lots of white people? If not, then why should it be deemed acceptable to say the equivalent to anyone of a different ethnicity, nationality and faith?

Who is denying Palestinians right to statehood? Who? The only people I come across on these threads who dont believe on a two state solution are those supporting 'from thd river to tje sea' for Palestinians & calling Israel colonisers.

SharonEllis · 03/09/2024 22:40

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:30

It is relevant because there is only one majority Jewish country in the world, which Jews needed because of their persecution in so many other countries, where they were minorities. And Israelis have a right to live in Israel and not be attacked, raped and murdered or threatened with the annihilation of their country by Hamas or their followers.

Do you honestly think that Hamas or the Palestinians would willingly accept a two-state solution?

Edited

I just despair that this has to be explained over and over again. Very few people don't want to let Palestinians have a state. A very few extremists don't care about the human rights of Palestinians. Yet over and over we see people on these tjreads being so blase about calling Israelis colonisers and deligitimisng their right to a home where they have a chance of not being persecuted.

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 22:37

Over half a century of persecution, forcible removal from their homes, genocidal rhetoric, denial of self-determination and their homeland... Surely these things should be unacceptable regardless of what religious group or ethnicity is suffering them. The existence of other Arab countries does not give justification for the erasure of Palestine and Palestinians.

"Other nationalities are available" type approaches are offensive. Would it be ok to tell a white Christian English person that it's ok for England to be occupied and denied its statehood because there are other countries where Christianity is the most prevalent religion and where there are lots of white people? If not, then why should it be deemed acceptable to say the equivalent to anyone of a different ethnicity, nationality and faith?

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Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:30

Lalaloveya · 03/09/2024 22:22

I mean...they're being persecuted now. And for decades and decades by Israel. But now it's a genocide.

And it's totally irrelevant that other "Arab Muslim" countries exist. They're Palestinian. They have a right to live there and not be ethnically cleansed or murdered by Israel.

It is relevant because there is only one majority Jewish country in the world, which Jews needed because of their persecution in so many other countries, where they were minorities. And Israelis have a right to live in Israel and not be attacked, raped and murdered or threatened with the annihilation of their country by Hamas or their followers.

Do you honestly think that Hamas or the Palestinians would willingly accept a two-state solution?

Lalaloveya · 03/09/2024 22:22

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:02

No. I’m not talking about 2000 years ago. I’m talking about the history of the persecution of Jews over the course of history. God knows there are enough examples in the twentieth century quite apart from the Nazis, such as the pogroms in Eastern Europe or the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were forced out of Arab countries in the 1940s and 50s, countries where their families had lived for hundreds of years.

I was making the point that throughout history Jews have been persecuted in whatever countries they have lived in, just for being Jews. That is why they need a country where they are the majority.

The Gazan Palestinians have never been in the same situation. There are many other Arab Muslim countries. That's why it’s not the same.

I mean...they're being persecuted now. And for decades and decades by Israel. But now it's a genocide.

And it's totally irrelevant that other "Arab Muslim" countries exist. They're Palestinian. They have a right to live there and not be ethnically cleansed or murdered by Israel.

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:02

ScrollingLeaves · 03/09/2024 20:29

I don’t understand what you are saying very well.

Are you saying that
a. because Jews living in modern Israel were persecuted where ever they lived in the diaspora over 2000 years before, they must not be allowed to be killed by threatening Arab countries now - which is what would happen if the U.S. refused to arm them?

but,

b. If the Jews use those arms to kill Palestinians and destroy Gaza and possibly the West Bank too if possible, that is ok because the Palestinians are not a separate race who were previously persecuted? ( Except by Israel.)

I may have misunderstood, but that does not seem to make sense to me. I agree with a. but not at all with b. .

No. I’m not talking about 2000 years ago. I’m talking about the history of the persecution of Jews over the course of history. God knows there are enough examples in the twentieth century quite apart from the Nazis, such as the pogroms in Eastern Europe or the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were forced out of Arab countries in the 1940s and 50s, countries where their families had lived for hundreds of years.

I was making the point that throughout history Jews have been persecuted in whatever countries they have lived in, just for being Jews. That is why they need a country where they are the majority.

The Gazan Palestinians have never been in the same situation. There are many other Arab Muslim countries. That's why it’s not the same.

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:01

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Scirocco · 03/09/2024 21:25

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Well, how do you challenge instances of people inciting, supporting or even openly celebrating the killing of Palestinians? Do you think enough is being done to challenge some of the anti-ceasefire, pro-violence, pro-occupation narratives being circulated?

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ScrollingLeaves · 03/09/2024 20:29

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 12:32

You haven’t answered the question.

But no, it would not be the same, because Gazan Palestinians are not a separate race who have been persecuted and murdered throughout history when they tried to live peacefully in countries where they were not a majority.

Edited

I don’t understand what you are saying very well.

Are you saying that
a. because Jews living in modern Israel were persecuted where ever they lived in the diaspora over 2000 years before, they must not be allowed to be killed by threatening Arab countries now - which is what would happen if the U.S. refused to arm them?

but,

b. If the Jews use those arms to kill Palestinians and destroy Gaza and possibly the West Bank too if possible, that is ok because the Palestinians are not a separate race who were previously persecuted? ( Except by Israel.)

I may have misunderstood, but that does not seem to make sense to me. I agree with a. but not at all with b. .

whataclownshow · 03/09/2024 20:27

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Scirocco · 03/09/2024 19:50

So, does anyone have any ideas on how we can challenge the incitement to or support of genocide of the Palestinian people when we encounter it?

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Zzippit · 03/09/2024 19:13

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Lalaloveya · 03/09/2024 18:38

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 14:58

You don’t think religion should be involved in any state. Shame all those Muslim states who expelled many hundreds of thousands of Jews, and confiscated their property, didn’t agree with you.

OK?

Auvergne63 · 03/09/2024 18:13

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Zzippit · 03/09/2024 17:56

Auvergne63 · 03/09/2024 17:30

It might be helpful to take some time to acquaint yourself with the definition of being patronising.

Why? I already know what it means.

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 17:35

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Auvergne63 · 03/09/2024 17:30

Zzippit · 03/09/2024 17:08

That's not what I said at all, please don't exaggerate. It might be helpful to take some time to acquaint yourself with the definitions of whataboutery and deflection.

It might be helpful to take some time to acquaint yourself with the definition of being patronising.