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Conflict in the Middle East

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Miffylou · 04/09/2024 02:53

Lalaloveya · 03/09/2024 23:31

Come off it. It's not just Netanyahu. If Israel had wanted a two state solution at any point we'd have had one by now. And the state wouldn't have allowed and supported the continued violent theft of Palestinian land which continues to this day.

Read some history. Rabin was leading Israel to agreement but then was murdered by a right-wing extremist. Later, Bill Clinton said it was Arafat who scuppered the two-state proposal, which was agreed in theory and just waiting for agreement on the fine details, because he said if he accepted it he would be murdered by his own side.

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 02:39

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 03/09/2024 23:31

I'm not answering your ridiculous fantasies. I find the use of these made up scenarios are frequently being used to justify Israel breaking International law and to minimise the actual reality of what is happening right now. I find it appalling and refuse to take part.

Thanks. I think that response tells us clearly enough what your answer would probably be.

Zzippit · 04/09/2024 00:56

Maybe because it's about the thousandth thread saying all the same things.

So challenge it however you feel best when you encounter it? (Wherever that is, you haven't specified so it's difficult to make a more accurate suggestion. I don't think anyone here has a hotline to Smotrich or Ben-Gvir.)

If you find yourself in the position of constantly encountering people who are inciting, supporting or openly celebrating the deaths of Palestinians maybe it would be a good idea to take more care of the company you keep. The only people I've encountered inciting genocide have been antisemites.

Scirocco · 04/09/2024 00:13

The thread is, however, rather light on discussion of how incitement to genocide of Palestinians may be challenged. Or what can be done to try to protect innocent Palestinians suffering horrendous conditions, while genocidal rhetoric goes unchecked.

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Zzippit · 04/09/2024 00:06

My refusal to answer promptly is clearly due to some horrendous motive

More projection and unnecessary exaggeration. As you had just answered, that statement clearly didn't refer to you. This thread is packed with posters giving their opinions on the necessity or lack thereof (in their view) for a Jewish state so I found it interesting that no-one answered that particular question.

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 23:55

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:43

It had barely been 20 minutes before the question was answered to the poster it was addressed to, that's hardly refusing to answer is it? Are you new to mumsnet?

My refusal to answer promptly is clearly due to some horrendous motive rather than just having been posting in between removing DC's 'artwork' from my windows. Rainbows, scribbly clouds and what may have been farm animals are all very nice, but not on my actual windows and window ledges.

OP posts:
Zzippit · 03/09/2024 23:51

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:43

It had barely been 20 minutes before the question was answered to the poster it was addressed to, that's hardly refusing to answer is it? Are you new to mumsnet?

No. Are you?

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 23:47

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:19

Oh, your comment has reminded me that you still haven’t replied to my hypothetical question to you. I’ll repeat it for you.

Let’s just assume a hypothetical situation. Suppose that countries such as the US and the UK stopped selling weapons to Israel and the surrounding Arab countries then collaborated to launch an outright attack with the declared aim of wiping Israel off the map. (I’ll be generous and refrain from adding "and killing all Jews", which is an avowed aim of Hamas and some other Muslim leaders.)

If that happened, would you support a proposal for the rest of the international community to support Israel and fight against the Arab coalition? Or would you be happy for Israel to be destroyed, leaving no majority Jewish state anywhere in the world?

Well, this wasn't asked of me, but here is my answer.

Firstly, I think there is a distinction to be made between defensive support of an ally and faciitation of aggression against a civilian population. I would have supported a targeted, intelligence-led, ideally jointly coordinated and overseen operation, carried out within international law, against the terrorist organisation responsible for pretty much the worst terrorist atrocity since 9/11 (even knowing that people and places I care about would have been in harm's way). I also think international laws and limits should be applicable for all and that governments should not expect to be given weapons by countries who claim to uphold those standards without also being expected to adhere to those in the use of the resources made available. So, I don't think governments should say "fend for yourself", but I also don't think they should be giving a free pass when it comes to international law.

In your hypothetical situation, a country and its civilian population would be at risk of harm and potentially destruction. Regardless of whatever went before, the right thing to do would be to protect the innocent population at risk. Just as innocent Palestinians do not deserve to die because of the heinous actions of the people in power, nor do innocent Israelis deserve that fate because of whatever acts of the leadership in your scenario led to the international community stopping military assistance in the scenario.

I would point out that neighbouring Arab countries have been involved in trying to protect Israel. When Iran launched missiles and drones, countries helped their neighbour. It would be likely that a defensive coalition to protect the existence of Israel would also include other countries in the region and that even countries which might 'keep out of' actual direct interventions might contribute in other ways. Israel is not alone and will not be alone. Its government should still be expected to conduct itself in accordance with basic ethical and legal standards though.

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Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:43

Zzippit · 03/09/2024 23:36

People have been jumping in all over the place answering questions not addressed to them and giving unsolicited opinions so I didn't think there'd be an issue. Refusing to answer is an answer in itself.

It had barely been 20 minutes before the question was answered to the poster it was addressed to, that's hardly refusing to answer is it? Are you new to mumsnet?

ScrollingLeaves · 03/09/2024 23:40

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:19

Oh, your comment has reminded me that you still haven’t replied to my hypothetical question to you. I’ll repeat it for you.

Let’s just assume a hypothetical situation. Suppose that countries such as the US and the UK stopped selling weapons to Israel and the surrounding Arab countries then collaborated to launch an outright attack with the declared aim of wiping Israel off the map. (I’ll be generous and refrain from adding "and killing all Jews", which is an avowed aim of Hamas and some other Muslim leaders.)

If that happened, would you support a proposal for the rest of the international community to support Israel and fight against the Arab coalition? Or would you be happy for Israel to be destroyed, leaving no majority Jewish state anywhere in the world?

I cannot answer for anyone else, and my opinion is not of any consequence, but I support Israel in its continued existence.

I do not support what Israel has been doing to Palestinians through illegal settlements and stealing Palestinian land, or the disproportionate destruction of Gaza, and killing there; or in general the reign of control by the extremist dishonest Prime Minister, and those whom he obeys so as to stay in power. None of this will bring Israel security.

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:38

Lalaloveya · 03/09/2024 23:31

Come off it. It's not just Netanyahu. If Israel had wanted a two state solution at any point we'd have had one by now. And the state wouldn't have allowed and supported the continued violent theft of Palestinian land which continues to this day.

They don't only allow it. The isrseli government sanctions the theft of Palestinian land itself. It comes directly from the government and they spend millions of shekels in establishing illegal settlements in direct violation of international law.

Zzippit · 03/09/2024 23:36

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:13

If you bothered to notice, that question was not asked openly but aimed at one poster who has replied.

People have been jumping in all over the place answering questions not addressed to them and giving unsolicited opinions so I didn't think there'd be an issue. Refusing to answer is an answer in itself.

Zzippit · 03/09/2024 23:33

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 23:13

Have a bit of patience. I can only type so fast. I've now posted an opinion so feel free to go ahead and say how terrible a person I must be or whatever because I think international law and human rights should matter for everyone.

Why on Earth would I say that? That makes no sense at all. It'd be helpful if people could stop projecting.

Lalaloveya · 03/09/2024 23:31

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:20

I’ve already said that I loathe Netanyahu and that a two-state solution woukd require a new Israeli leader.

Come off it. It's not just Netanyahu. If Israel had wanted a two state solution at any point we'd have had one by now. And the state wouldn't have allowed and supported the continued violent theft of Palestinian land which continues to this day.

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 03/09/2024 23:31

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:19

Oh, your comment has reminded me that you still haven’t replied to my hypothetical question to you. I’ll repeat it for you.

Let’s just assume a hypothetical situation. Suppose that countries such as the US and the UK stopped selling weapons to Israel and the surrounding Arab countries then collaborated to launch an outright attack with the declared aim of wiping Israel off the map. (I’ll be generous and refrain from adding "and killing all Jews", which is an avowed aim of Hamas and some other Muslim leaders.)

If that happened, would you support a proposal for the rest of the international community to support Israel and fight against the Arab coalition? Or would you be happy for Israel to be destroyed, leaving no majority Jewish state anywhere in the world?

I'm not answering your ridiculous fantasies. I find the use of these made up scenarios are frequently being used to justify Israel breaking International law and to minimise the actual reality of what is happening right now. I find it appalling and refuse to take part.

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:20

ScrollingLeaves · 03/09/2024 23:18

What about before Oct 7 as Israel was not working towards a two state solution then either?

From The Times of Israel 8 Oct 2023
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
( my bolding)

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state

I’ve already said that I loathe Netanyahu and that a two-state solution woukd require a new Israeli leader.

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:19

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 03/09/2024 23:12

I mean the same could be said of Palestinians, why would they want a neighbouring state with people who think they have a right to steal their homes, to murder, abduct and torture their children, to restrict their access to food and water etc etc. Israel haven't been sat on their hands treating Palestinians with respect, they have been breaking international law for decades in their treatment of them.

Oh, your comment has reminded me that you still haven’t replied to my hypothetical question to you. I’ll repeat it for you.

Let’s just assume a hypothetical situation. Suppose that countries such as the US and the UK stopped selling weapons to Israel and the surrounding Arab countries then collaborated to launch an outright attack with the declared aim of wiping Israel off the map. (I’ll be generous and refrain from adding "and killing all Jews", which is an avowed aim of Hamas and some other Muslim leaders.)

If that happened, would you support a proposal for the rest of the international community to support Israel and fight against the Arab coalition? Or would you be happy for Israel to be destroyed, leaving no majority Jewish state anywhere in the world?

ScrollingLeaves · 03/09/2024 23:18

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:07

Of course they don’t want one at the moment. What country would want a neighbouring state ruled by people who have repeatedly vowed to wipe them from the face of the earth? People who came over the border to cold-bloodedly murder, torture, rape and abduct civilians?

What about before Oct 7 as Israel was not working towards a two state solution then either?

From The Times of Israel 8 Oct 2023
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
( my bolding)

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 23:13

Zzippit · 03/09/2024 23:07

It's very telling that no-one will answer this question.

Have a bit of patience. I can only type so fast. I've now posted an opinion so feel free to go ahead and say how terrible a person I must be or whatever because I think international law and human rights should matter for everyone.

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Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:13

Zzippit · 03/09/2024 23:07

It's very telling that no-one will answer this question.

If you bothered to notice, that question was not asked openly but aimed at one poster who has replied.

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 03/09/2024 23:12

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:07

Of course they don’t want one at the moment. What country would want a neighbouring state ruled by people who have repeatedly vowed to wipe them from the face of the earth? People who came over the border to cold-bloodedly murder, torture, rape and abduct civilians?

I mean the same could be said of Palestinians, why would they want a neighbouring state with people who think they have a right to steal their homes, to murder, abduct and torture their children, to restrict their access to food and water etc etc. Israel haven't been sat on their hands treating Palestinians with respect, they have been breaking international law for decades in their treatment of them.

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:11

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:07

Of course they don’t want one at the moment. What country would want a neighbouring state ruled by people who have repeatedly vowed to wipe them from the face of the earth? People who came over the border to cold-bloodedly murder, torture, rape and abduct civilians?

And what people will want to continue to live under brutal illegal violent occupation? Which the Palestinians have, under the Israeli occupation for decades.

Scirocco · 03/09/2024 23:10

Do I 'approve'? My individual approval probably doesn't matter one bit to the terrorists and warmongers who have put a lot of effort into sabotaging the prospect, but yes, I think a two-state solution is probably the only feasible path to a sustainable end to hostilities. It wouldn't be easy, but the costs of the alternatives would be horrendous.

The erasure of Palestine would not bring peace. It would just stain the land and history with more innocent blood when more than enough has been spilled already. Palestinians would not be safe in a single state governed by the current Israeli government or their likely successors, and the treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories clearly shows what would happen if they were subjected to that situation. The creation of a single state with no overall state religion would defeat part of the reason for Israel's existence - to be a Jewish homeland - and that wouldn't be acceptable to the many people who need that security and legitimately call Israel home. So, there are two groups of people, both of whom have valid reasons to call a land home and who have different prerequisites for safety and security which involve maintaining different national identities. So, a two-state solution is really the only feasible route to achieve that.

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Miffylou · 03/09/2024 23:07

Lettherebejustice · 03/09/2024 23:02

@Miffylou it's not just Netanyahu. From 77 members, 68 voted against a Palestinan state. That should tell you all you need to know.

Of course they don’t want one at the moment. What country would want a neighbouring state ruled by people who have repeatedly vowed to wipe them from the face of the earth? People who came over the border to cold-bloodedly murder, torture, rape and abduct civilians?

Zzippit · 03/09/2024 23:07

Miffylou · 03/09/2024 22:47

Do you approve of a two-state solution? Do you think it is reasonable for Jews to have a country of their own anywhere in the world?

It's very telling that no-one will answer this question.