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Conflict in the Middle East

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ScrollingLeaves · 04/09/2024 22:06

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I have looked at your link though not read it all. It says indigenous people in Canada are against anti-semitism and against using oppression of a people as justification for murder, rape and capturing their oppressors. Most people are against these.

That does not mean settlers in the USA did not ravaged native Americans and feel justified because the natives were savage in their behaviour, and the pioneers felt the native people were both a threat, and in the way. They would certainly have called the native people terrorists if the word had been in common use then.

Hamas are not justified in their murdering, but Israel is no more justified by multiplying killing forty fold and destroying the whole of another people’s hospitals, schools, universities, mosques, journalists, doctors, lecturers - because they are ‘a sovereign state’.

And proxy of Iran though Hamas may be, it does but have the fighter jets and bombs, military bulldozers, tanks and drones and intelligence Israel has thanks to the U.S.

Netanyahu is not likely to be creating more security for Israelis by his methods.

SababaToo · 04/09/2024 21:29

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ScrollingLeaves · 04/09/2024 19:47

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Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 17:29

Polka83 · 04/09/2024 17:03

Can you imagine anyone defending any other country giving what is is basically an extra-judicial death sentence for the crime of throwing stones? And for juveniles?

Can you imagine the uproar if an Israeli youth was shot for throwing a stone at a Palestinian?

Can you imagine anyone defending any other country giving what is is basically an extra-judicial death sentence for the crime of throwing stones? And for juveniles?
Yet this is defended again and again and again.
Can you imagine the uproar if an Israeli youth was shot for throwing a stone at a Palestinian?
Indeed.

Polka83 · 04/09/2024 17:03

Can you imagine anyone defending any other country giving what is is basically an extra-judicial death sentence for the crime of throwing stones? And for juveniles?

Can you imagine the uproar if an Israeli youth was shot for throwing a stone at a Palestinian?

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 15:48

Lalaloveya · 04/09/2024 15:17

It's hard to read those posts.

It is.

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 15:36

Lettherebejustice · 04/09/2024 13:46

@Miffylou I really can't see why you are defending the IPS as operating on a apartheid system. I can only think that it is ignorance on the matter or denial. There's no debate, it is fact. Go ask anyone who has even the minimum basic knowledge on the matter and they will tell you that there are separate systems and procedures for Israelis and Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Desmond Tutu visited the West bank and stated "I have witnessed the systemic humiliation of Palestinian men, women and children by members of the Israeli security forces. Their humiliation is familiar to all black South Africans who were corralled and harassed and insulted and assaulted by the security forces of the apartheid government. Those who turn a blind eye to injustice actually perpetuate injustice. If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
I think he knew what he was talking about.

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 15:21

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It requires good faith on both sides.

Lalaloveya · 04/09/2024 15:17

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 15:13

I am speechless.

It's hard to read those posts.

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 15:13

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 12:17

Yes, it’s wrong and I condemn such treatment. But as I suspected, these are teenage boys who were throwing rocks or similarly choosing to engage violently with Israelis. They are not young children shot in their cots or burnt to death in their homes or kidnapped for no reason at all other than their nationality, like the ones murdered or abducted last October.

I am speechless.

Dulra · 04/09/2024 15:11

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 14:57

I have never heard of any other war where civilians received notice to leave particular areas or buildings before they were targeted.
They did give notice to leave then proceeded to bomb the "safe" places where they took refuge. This is well documented.

Yes and in most other wars civilians are evacuated they are not restricted to remain in an active conflict zone, moved time and again to ever decreasing "safe" spaces. They have access to aid, medical supplies, housing, field hospitals. Comparisons with other conflicts is pointless when it comes to safeguarding civilian life, there is no comparison.

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 14:57

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 09:53

We will just have to disagree on this. No doubt Israel could have done things better, but I have never heard of any other war where civilians received notice to leave particular areas or buildings before they were targeted.

The actions of Hamas nearly a year ago precipitated all this death and misery. What do you suppose they thought Israel's reaction to their murderous rampage and abductions would be?

Edited

I have never heard of any other war where civilians received notice to leave particular areas or buildings before they were targeted.
They did give notice to leave then proceeded to bomb the "safe" places where they took refuge. This is well documented.

Auvergne63 · 04/09/2024 14:52

SharonEllis · 03/09/2024 22:43

Who is denying Palestinians right to statehood? Who? The only people I come across on these threads who dont believe on a two state solution are those supporting 'from thd river to tje sea' for Palestinians & calling Israel colonisers.

Netanyahu and his government have used this phrase too as well as Hamas. I firmly believe in two state solutions. Pity that these two do not.

Lalaloveya · 04/09/2024 14:39

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 13:46

I replied again by mistake, but my second post includes a link about the hundreds of thousands of Jews forced out of their homes in Arab countries. What is your comment about that?

It's not any more logical the second time. Or the subsequent times you mention it. Your point that Israel can't be apartheid because other unnamed states expelled Jews makes no logical sense, no matter how many times you repeat it.

What are the flaws of the state of Israel that you disagree with? You're OK with or deny the existence of apartheid and torturing children held without charge in Israeli prisons. So what do you acknowledge as a flaws?

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 14:16

So you complain that I can apparently see no flaws in Israel, then complain when I say there are plenty of flaws. Then accuse me of childishness. And refuse to comment on the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries, presumably because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Right…

Lettherebejustice · 04/09/2024 14:10

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Dulra · 04/09/2024 14:02

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It is legitimate for any sovereign country to wish to fully destroy a terrorist group that threatens their national security, especially when they're proxies of another country such as Iran.

But it is not legitimate for any terrorist group to try to destroy any sovereign country.

So where does that leave Palestinians in Gaza? They and their homes, lives, schools, hospitals, society is currently getting destroyed, is that legitimate in Israels legitimate campaign to destroy Hamas?

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 14:01

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So you reply to my question to you about the treatment of Jews in Muslim Arab countries by accusing me of deflection…

As I have said repeatedly on this thread and elsewhere, I see plenty of flaws in Israel and deplore any ill-treatment of inhabitants of the West Bank or anywhere else.

But it’s easy not to ill-treat a minority if there aren’t many to ill-treat because you’ve already persecuted them out of the country.

Your turn.

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 04/09/2024 13:59

That's wrong. Of course it is. I'd never try and pretend that it didn't happen.

Are you going to apologise for your error and accept that this is yet another crime being committed by Israel against Palestinians. Perhaps you could suggest what you think Palestinians should do about it? Israel can kill 2% of a population, destroy vital healthcare and infrastructure, starve children, Palestinians can what?

SababaToo · 04/09/2024 13:55

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Lettherebejustice · 04/09/2024 13:48

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SababaToo · 04/09/2024 13:47

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Lettherebejustice · 04/09/2024 13:46

@Miffylou I really can't see why you are defending the IPS as operating on a apartheid system. I can only think that it is ignorance on the matter or denial. There's no debate, it is fact. Go ask anyone who has even the minimum basic knowledge on the matter and they will tell you that there are separate systems and procedures for Israelis and Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 13:46

TheOnlyCherryOnMyTree · 04/09/2024 13:40

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied

The Court added that Israel's legislation and measures violate the international prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid. It's pretty clear that the ICJ don't agree with you.

I replied again by mistake, but my second post includes a link about the hundreds of thousands of Jews forced out of their homes in Arab countries. What is your comment about that?

Dulra · 04/09/2024 13:45

Miffylou · 04/09/2024 13:34

"Apartheid" - in a country where over 20% of citizens are Muslim Arabs, represented in all areas of life including the Knesset!

Is there "apartheid" in any Muslim Arab country? Oh, I remember now, there can’t be - because they drove out or forcibly expelled most of the Jews who had lived there for hundreds of years…

"Apartheid" - in a country where over 20% of citizens are Muslim Arabs, represented in all areas of life including the Knesset!
You know that doesn't prove anything. There are laws in place that favour one race above another that is apartheid.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

I am posting this link but I know you'll likely discredit the organisation it comes from.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes.  For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of P...

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid