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Conflict in the Middle East
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Lettherebejustice · 04/08/2024 17:12

I notice you haven’t commented on any post relating to the atrocities in Gaza, the compelling statements by American doctors, or the settler violence in the West Bank, aided by the IDF. Except that is to vehemently defend Israel.

Spot on! As have I, and I'm sure others too.

AhNowTed · 04/08/2024 17:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DownNative · 04/08/2024 15:38

Kindatired · 01/08/2024 01:44

@DownNative You've lots of quasi legal/academic arguments to show those of us lesser mortals who just happen to have seen starvation and genocide in real life, the ignorant souls from the world of medicine and science. Your threads don’t conceal your hawkish attitude and alignment with Israel and the British establishment. I think your arguments are good because of your debating skills and depth of knowledge, but this doesn’t give you a monopoly on the truth.

You posted a picture of Gerry Adams, he of the armolite and ballot box. You said on another thread that the GFA and resulting peace was the result of the British military’s effective defeat of the PIRA as you call them. This was clearly not the case- Sinn Féin made the move further into the political arena and are currently most successful party in NI.
I’m not a “sneaking begrudger” or a Sinn Féin supporter, but I think that the killing of Haniyeh could be a disaster for the hostages. Politics is about dialogue. Freeing hostages needs dialogue. Taking out a terrorist who is political leader with clout when you’re trying to do a hostage deal is a mistake, even if it garners support political support for Netanyahu.Negotiations with someone who isn’t a terrorist aren’t going to get any living hostages back.
Taking out these older guys does not weaken Hamas-it just creates a space for younger less skilled ones to move into their places. Mossad are very successful- they regularly take out key figures in Hamas and the organisation is set up to deal with this problem. Hamas will be set back for a few critical weeks ( from the point of view of the hostages and those trying to avert a further humanitarian disaster ) but after that business as usual, probably with a younger less skilled and more extreme replacement . Well done Mr Netanyahu, your war objective of staying out of prison yourself is going well.

"You've lots of quasi legal/academic arguments to show those of us lesser mortals who just happen to have seen starvation and genocide in real life, the ignorant souls from the world of medicine and science. Your threads don’t conceal your hawkish attitude and alignment with Israel and the British establishment. I think your arguments are good because of your debating skills and depth of knowledge, but this doesn’t give you a monopoly on the truth."

I suggest putting your passive aggressive attitude to one side and try to be as objective as possible. That'd be a good start.

My threads?

IIRC, I only have a couple of threads - one in CITME from months ago regarding Hezbollah in Lebanon from an academic perspective and one on learning a foreign language (obv. not in CITME).

Also, let's dispense with the Strawman Argument Fallacy, shall we? I never claimed to have a monopoly on the truth. 🤦‍♂️

Fortunately, I'm not actually attempting to conceal anything here. It's very clear I'm aligned with the Western sphere of influence and dead set against Iran's axis with Hezbollah, Houthis, Hamas as well as militias in Iraq and Syria.

I should hope that isn't a problem.

"You posted a picture of Gerry Adams, he of the armolite and ballot box."

I did, aye, mocking Adams. And? Pretty clear PSF/PIRA have & maintain links with Hamas et al.

By the way, the armalite & the ballot box idea came from Danny Morrison. Not Adams who is more Provo politically minded as opposed to Provo militarily minded.

"You said on another thread that the GFA and resulting peace was the result of the British military’s effective defeat of the PIRA as you call them. This was clearly not the case- Sinn Féin made the move further into the political arena and are currently most successful party in NI."

I did and that is entirely correct. A terrorist organisation doesn’t give up terrorism unless the cost is too high. PIRA was infiltrated from the top down, security forces were able to intercept most operations, PIRAs most dangerous cell was wiped out in 1987 and many of their members were in prison. Additionally, the other drawback of their terrorist cell structure from 1977 onwards was their numbers were small and average age was significantly higher. By the dawn of the 1990s, PIRAs average age during this period was 40 or so compared with 20 in their initial insurgency phase 1970-74. A lower average age brings indiscipline in the ranks as PSF/PIRA noted in documents seized in 1977, but a higher average age increases the likelihood of death plus Father Time is not on their side. If PIRA was strong and capable of escalating things, it wouldn't have agreed to the conditions laid down by the Sovereign Power in 1998, much less decommissioned weapons. Indeed, PSF/PIRA did not achieve any of their long held key core demands in the Belfast Agreement. But the UK Government got theirs in it.

Is this also the point where I put down the words of significant PIRA members once again or something?

Oh, and Provisional Sinn Féin has barely gained on their last electoral showing. A less than 2% increase! 🤦‍♂️

Nationalism isn't the majority at Stormont either. As for PSF as FM, that's what political Unionist division gets you, but isn't an actual win for PSF in real terms.

"I’m not a “sneaking begrudger” or a Sinn Féin supporter, but I think that the killing of Haniyeh could be a disaster for the hostages."

A possibility, yes. But one that makes a lot of assumptions about what Hamas is prepared to do with those remaining hostages. Indeed, Hamas refuses to indicate whether they're alive or dead, including the ratio. An important omission. You can't take a group like this at face value. We already know they murdered multiple hostages months ago and hid them including in Rafah.

"Politics is about dialogue. Freeing hostages needs dialogue. Taking out a terrorist who is political leader with clout when you’re trying to do a hostage deal is a mistake, even if it garners support political support for Netanyahu.Negotiations with someone who isn’t a terrorist aren’t going to get any living hostages back."

Up to a point, I can agree. But the mistake you're making there is assuming it was Haniyeh who held the significant clout. It wasn't.

Yahya Sinwar is the one with the real clout, especially as he's the one with the hostages within Gaza. Haniyeh was always limited given he had very few cards to play being leader of the political arm of Hamas. This setup was not the same as that of PSF/PIRA where the Adams/McGuinness faction manoeuvred into gaining control of the Provisional Republican Movement both politically and militarily from circa 1981 onwards, i.e., Northern Command booted Southern Command over the border and took charge of all Provo affairs.

The kind of combined leadership PSF/PIRA had then suits a small terrorist group, but also has its drawbacks. But a consolidated political and military leadership does not suit what Hamas really is - a terror army. Indeed, the size of Hamas means a parallel military and political leadership structure is more secure than a single consolidated one. Whoever controls the military side has the upper hand until such time as that group's terrorist military activity makes a strategic defeat very apparent. Then, and only then, does the political leadership gain the upper hand.

So, Sinwar in Gaza is the real focus if you want to achieve your remaining war aim having achieved the others. It may well be that Sinwar will be prepared to do a hostage deal once the psychological pressure is too much for him. He'll have heard about the various eliminations and may want to save his own skin for certain terms.

Either that or he's more than happy to murder them in a last act of psychological terror on Israel and her people. The last I always think is more likely - Sinwar is not really pragmatic, imo.

"Taking out these older guys does not weaken Hamas-it just creates a space for younger less skilled ones to move into their places. Mossad are very successful- they regularly take out key figures in Hamas and the organisation is set up to deal with this problem. Hamas will be set back for a few critical weeks ( from the point of view of the hostages and those trying to avert a further humanitarian disaster ) but after that business as usual, probably with a younger less skilled and more extreme replacement."

Under "normal" conditions of past conflict with Hamas, you are correct. Assassinations are a short term tactical option, but not a long term strategic one. Problem for Hamas is numbers plus supporting terrorist infrastructure are more limited now than before plus the psychological toll of tunnel warfare is greater than before. We've got indications there is some degree of disunity within Hamas which is how the IDF had enough intel to pull off the hostage rescue a while back. Some indication of local Gazan population dissent towards Hamas too. Under these conditions, assassinations have a stronger negative effect on a terrorist group.

Replacements whilst usually younger are not only less skilled, but more impulsive and less psychologically resilient. A terrorist organisation is only as dangerous as its skill set. A small highly skilled one can be much more dangerous than a larger less skilled one.

It's also not axiomatic that replacements are more extreme. That's an assumption you've made yourself.

Hamas is not set up to deal with the problem it currently faces and this will become clearer over the next few months. Indeed, the Philadelphi Corridor was very important to Hamas, but they've lost that. Now, we can see the size of the tunnels going into Egypt. Iran's axis will try to save what remains of Hamas from the next few days on by hoping to tie the IDF against the proverbial ropes long enough for Hamas to recover in some manner. With the military defensive support that's coming for Israel, its not likely to help Hamas in the long run.

Kindatired · 03/08/2024 22:40

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 21:21

PS I don’t think there is anything wrong with being pro Israel, as long as it’s couched within being pro all human beings.

It depends whether you define pro-Israeli as believing Israel has a right to exist or whether you think that it should also have the Paslestinisn territories and all that that would entail. Israeli born Adelson funds settlements in the West Bank. She spends most of her time in Israel while doing her business in the US where she uses her money to try to influence US government policy in relation to Israel- she is very hawkish. Her late husband was quoted as saying “The Palestinians are an invented people,” and “the purpose of the existence of Palestinians is to destroy Israel”. The pair were basically two hearts with one beat on these matters.

BelleHathor · 03/08/2024 21:43

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 21:28

I wonder what it is that Trump gets from being president? Is he set on a policy or more easily swayed by what’s happening around him? Does he act from a secure base of beliefs?

I really have no idea at all, like a lot of people I would guess he runs on ego and the need to be liked.

I could broadly understand why he won in 2016 by promising to be the anti establishment candidate which appealed to a lot of the disaffected working class (that Michael Moore used to make documentaries about). But when in office he kept a lot and appointed as advisers these establishment sorts. The stories say that he listens to whoever currently has his ear, funnily enough he said that Netanyahu was the biggest obstacle to the 2 state solution and got on well with Abbas, but the deal brokered by his Son in law was the equivalent to capitulation and the relationship with Abbas broke down after the Embassy move.
If he wins Trump will have to decide if America losing it's International standing and potentially having to send more US soldiers to the region is a price worth paying.

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 21:28

BelleHathor · 03/08/2024 21:23

Yeah, the fear is that if Trump wins, he'll increase arms and look the other way as more settlements are built and Gaza "resettled". The Republicans have gone all in on the we're Israel's best supporters which makes their very powerful Evangelical wing happy.

I wonder what it is that Trump gets from being president? Is he set on a policy or more easily swayed by what’s happening around him? Does he act from a secure base of beliefs?

BelleHathor · 03/08/2024 21:23

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 21:19

I found an article that says she is Israels richest person, that’s a lot of leverage, at least theoretically.

Yeah, the fear is that if Trump wins, he'll increase arms and look the other way as more settlements are built and Gaza "resettled". The Republicans have gone all in on the we're Israel's best supporters which makes their very powerful Evangelical wing happy.

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 21:21

PS I don’t think there is anything wrong with being pro Israel, as long as it’s couched within being pro all human beings.

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 21:19

I found an article that says she is Israels richest person, that’s a lot of leverage, at least theoretically.

BelleHathor · 03/08/2024 21:12

Kindatired · 03/08/2024 20:46

Miriam Adelson has funded FDD

And also pledged $100 million to the Trump campaign this year. Following the tradition of her late Husband who donated $20m in 2016 on the condition that Trump would move the American embassy to Jerusalem.
https://forward.com/fast-forward/618034/miriam-adelson-funding-trump-israel/

After hesitating, Miriam Adelson commits more than $100 million to Trump's campaign

Her late husband, the casino magnate Sheldon Adelson, didn’t cut checks in 2016 for Trump until September of that year.

https://forward.com/fast-forward/618034/miriam-adelson-funding-trump-israel

Kindatired · 03/08/2024 20:46

Miriam Adelson has funded FDD

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 15:37

I’ll agree with that part of what reads like a script, or something created by AI.

But I will argue it is because Biden has supported the Israeli offensive, when it has been clear from early on, that it has been a disproportionate balls up that has done more harm than good.

Also, any bias that ignores the human rights of a group of people is always wrong.

DownNative · 03/08/2024 15:22

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 14:25

Some information on the FDD, as if this wasn’t obvious from the blurb posted above.

‘According to a left-leaning ThinkProgress article dated July 19, 2011, about the major donors of FDD, “Most of the major donors are active philanthropists to ‘pro-Israel’ causes both in the U.S. and internationally. With the disclosure of its donor rolls, it becomes increasingly apparent that FDD’s advocacy of U.S. military intervention in the Middle East, its hawkish stance against Iran, and its defense of right-wing Israeli policy is consistent with its donors’ interests in ‘pro-Israel’ advocacy.”

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/foundation-defense-democracies/

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/foundation-defense-democracies-iran/

Every individual and organisation has a bias, but to imply it means they're wrong about something is a logical fallacy based on that.

The reality shows the Biden Administration, aside from being a lame duck, has made things worse, not better. That includes their humanitarian pier concept. Biden Administration has been very poor on foreign policy since the beginning of his Presidency.

My point stands on that. 👍

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 14:26

@DownNative any thoughts on my previous question? Are you able to confirm, that you are against the oppression of entire groups of people?

PeasfullPerson · 03/08/2024 14:25

Some information on the FDD, as if this wasn’t obvious from the blurb posted above.

‘According to a left-leaning ThinkProgress article dated July 19, 2011, about the major donors of FDD, “Most of the major donors are active philanthropists to ‘pro-Israel’ causes both in the U.S. and internationally. With the disclosure of its donor rolls, it becomes increasingly apparent that FDD’s advocacy of U.S. military intervention in the Middle East, its hawkish stance against Iran, and its defense of right-wing Israeli policy is consistent with its donors’ interests in ‘pro-Israel’ advocacy.”

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/foundation-defense-democracies/

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/foundation-defense-democracies-iran/

Will This Billionaire-Funded Think Tank Get Its War With Iran?

The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies’ militaristic influence on US policy toward Iran is working. Suleimani’s assassination is evidence of that.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/foundation-defense-democracies-iran

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 03/08/2024 12:59

Their main aim seems to be destroy Israel.

Bibi's doing a masterful job of this all by himself.

Kriscross · 03/08/2024 08:19

"It's a war between Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Iraqi & Syrian militants against Israel.

A war Israel faces on multiple fronts. That's why it's important they have allies too. But, just as crucially, those allies cannot keep trying to micromanage the war as this costs more lives in the long run."

Yes, the allies need to support Israel from terrorist groups in all these countries. Their main aim seems to be destroy Israel. Secondary aim seems to cause mayhem and destruction in their individual countries. None are any good.

DownNative · 02/08/2024 22:20

Iran's letter to the UN is not only ridiculous, but an example of irony since Iran via Hezbollah violates UNSC Resolution 1701 for the last 10 months. Additionally, Iran provided zero evidence that it was Israel who definitely took out Haniyeh. Israel is not the only entity with motive and opportunity to do so. It was done within Iranian territory - not a jet from Israel to Iran that fired a missile. That would be even more humiliating for Iran and would suggest they're rather poor at tracking aircraft entering their own airspace to proceed to target unmolested. Never mind the advantageous terrain chosen to make that rather difficult to do. Top Gun is really good fiction!

It looks like much the same coalition as earlier this year will assist Israel in defending itself against Iranian and Hezbollah attacks.

The United States deployed 12 warships in the Middle East.

Jordan is preparing, in cooperation with the US and British military, to confront the drones and missiles expected to be launched from Iran towards Israel.

UK's Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Tony Radakin met with IDF Chief of Staff General Herzi Halevi in Tel Aviv today. UK Secretary of Defence, John Healy, was also in Tel Aviv.

France warns Hezbollah their response will trigger Israeli strikes on Lebanon's critical infrastructure. The French officially say, "France supports the stability, unity, independence and sovereignty of Lebanon." They will not want Hezbollah to risk all that for Lebanon.

As for the Biden Administration, he's a lame duck President. Besides, their policy of appeasement despite the constant attacks on Israel from Iran via Hezbollah has only led to escalation. They've sent Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas the wrong message: they just need to hold out and keep pushing, and they will get what they want. That's how Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas read the behaviour of the Biden Administration. That's escalation.

Especially in an election year when the Democrats are more concerned about how American voters might treat them at the ballot box in November.

US efforts to micromanage warfare never goes well.

Senior advisor at the FDD think-tank, Richard Goldberg pointed out: “Iran has been waging a multi-front regional war for more than 9 months. Pressuring Israel to accept every escalation by Iran’s terror axis as a new normal brought us to this moment.”

The West has been opting for very short term tactical moves which hurts any long term military strategy, i.e., makes achieving war aims even harder. It shows they don't really understand the Middle East conflict dynamic.

Whatever Iran, Hezbollah, Houthis as well as militants as Iranian proxies in Iraq and Syria do next....it'll mean more and more people will come to understand this isn't and never really was a war between Hamas & Israel.

It's a war between Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Iraqi & Syrian militants against Israel.

A war Israel faces on multiple fronts. That's why it's important they have allies too. But, just as crucially, those allies cannot keep trying to micromanage the war as this costs more lives in the long run.

Additionally, Western COIN military strategy is inappropriate for this war and we've seen it really doesn't work in the long run against the type of enemy Israel faces.

Hamas leader killed
Parkingt111 · 02/08/2024 19:20

How much clearer does it have to be that Netanyahu doesn't want to end this war

www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/biden-frustrated-netanyahu-ordered-assassinations-after-feigning-commitment-to-gaza-deal-in-dc-axios/

BelleHathor · 02/08/2024 16:14

Keep in mind that there is a lot of propaganda right now about how the assassination was carried out. The story about the bomb planted in the room is an attempt to say that the act was a targeted intelligence action which would limit the scope and options for Iran to respond.

If it was a rocket, Iran has the right to respond under Section 51 of the UN Charter:
"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security."

In fact Iran has written to the UN to inform them of their plan to respond accordingly under Section 51. https://x.com/Divsallar/status/1818709341848891406

Remember Hezbollah has basically gone dark and is refusing to speak to Western mediators, yesterday Nasrallah openly stated that there will a be a response stronger and larger than the current stance in South Lebanon.

Yemen is itching to respond to the attack on their harbour.
Iraq is ready too.

Don't forget that the Iranian response in April was carried out after mediation through third parties with the US to limit the scope and Iran provided notice. That attack also allowed Iran to "see" the type of Air Defence that Israel has.

Basically the whole "resistance axis" have changed their stance from providing a support front for Gaza to responding to these attacks. Additionally from Axios:

"The Biden administration is concerned it may be more difficult to mobilize the same international and regional coalition of countries that defended Israel from the previous Iranian attack because Haniyeh's assassination is in the context of the Israel-Hamas war, which has drawn sharp anti-Israel sentiments across the region.

https://www.axios.com/2024/08/01/us-iran-israel-attack-preparation

x.com

https://x.com/Divsallar/status/1818709341848891406

DownNative · 02/08/2024 15:55

BTW, IDF's Hagari has said they didn't carry out an aerial strike but didn't clarify what type of military action they took.

However it was done and whoever did it...Great job!

Damaged section here. 👇

Hamas leader killed
Hamas leader killed
DownNative · 02/08/2024 15:46

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 02/08/2024 15:37

“Leader of PIJ was in room next to Haniyeh was barely touched. Make of that what you will.”

Kinetic missile.

Extremely precise, minimal damage, almost silent so there’s no sound-delivered warning. It’s a laser-guided precision weapon that hits the target, reducing the possibility of wiping out entire blocks/buildings and civilians. The point of impact is pretty much exact.

That's not what I mean at all. 🙈 Don't worry about it. 👍

Besides, it's not clear yet if it was a missile or a bomb in the room. Either is possible.

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 02/08/2024 15:37

“Leader of PIJ was in room next to Haniyeh was barely touched. Make of that what you will.”

Kinetic missile.

Extremely precise, minimal damage, almost silent so there’s no sound-delivered warning. It’s a laser-guided precision weapon that hits the target, reducing the possibility of wiping out entire blocks/buildings and civilians. The point of impact is pretty much exact.

Auvergne63 · 02/08/2024 15:27

samG76 · 01/08/2024 16:40

Auvergne - no-one suggests that every German was a Nazi, but if the British hadn't bombed Germany because of the danger of injuring civilians, then the whole of Europe would have ended up under Nazi rules. The non-Nazis ended up suffering for the manaical extremism and pathological violence of their leaders

The bombing of Dresden is considered to be a war crime according to many experts. You also have to take into account the fact that precision weapons didn't exist at the time. They do now.
By the way, we wouldn't have been under Nazi rules but Russian ones. Hitler lost the war when he invaded Russia. This is widely known. In addition, the Brits were not the only ones bombing Germany. The Americans did too.