Hamas leader killed

I've been reading a military document recently that's NOT available for public consumption...Put it this way, although I read a lot of things here I don't feel the need to post my thoughts on every or most issues. I know exactly what I personally think of various issues and that's enough for me... As it is, I have a long list of documents to read so I'll obviously not respond to every single post. That would be a waste of time.

Please, dear thread gods. Make it stop.

Hamas simply don't want Gazans in their tunnels underground. The sad reality is it serves their own particular propaganda aims as keeping Gazans above ground serves Hamas' war aims, i.e., makes Israel look much worse than would otherwise be the case. Its intended to pressure Israel in a political sense which is intended to squeeze them in a military sense.

All whilst Iran's axis continues to attack to further the axis war aims. Multiple pressure points has and is being exerted on Israel to Israelis detriment.

If this strategy is ever successful, other like minded groups will adopt the same or similar which will make ANY Sovereign Power look worse.

There is no good option available for any Sovereign Power in such a situation, especially against an enemy who promises to do the same again & again as long as they are able to do so.

It's a strategy intended to radically close down all good options until a Sovereign Power is left having to choose between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. The Illusion of Choice fallacy comes into play too.

Some might say Sovereign Powers should be able to find a better alternative, but this ignores their real limitations in various spheres of influence AND blatantly ignores the fact an enemy like Hamas also has agency.

I've been reading a military document recently that's NOT available for public consumption. It states that a Sovereign Power's military plans don't survive contact with the enemy. The 1991 Gulf War was one exception to that rule which was actually unexpected.

The document in question is about planning & tactics employed, so don't ask how I got it as I won't answer that. But it shows the Sovereign Power's military is very much a learning organisation.

And I'm learning a lot from it.

Otherwise on this issue, @Limesodaagain, I would suggest you download NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence 2019 report entitled "Hamas' Use Of Human Shields In Gaza". It discusses the issue and suggests some steps that could be taken. But, as I said, military plans DON'T usually survive contact with the enemy. Militaries of various Sovereign Powers are actively studying and learning from the current war in Gaza. I expect we'll have new strategies in the future, but don't expect to be able to read what they are at any point over the next 10 to 20 years. Only Sovereign States will know what those will be.

Quite rightly so.

As for your other point, you make excellent, salient points. I said previously I don't go in for Atrocity Bingo, but here's another thing I don't go in for - Oppression Olympics. These aren't intended by anyone to seriously discuss the overall issues as they're intended to set up a binary argument, e.g., if you're not with us & don't do what we demand of you, then you're against us.

Put it this way, although I read a lot of things here I don't feel the need to post my thoughts on every or most issues. I know exactly what I personally think of various issues and that's enough for me. I don't indulge performative virtue signalling online.

And it's none of my business what anyone else thinks of me, especially when they base their perceptions on what I haven't said. As I've said before, perception is not the same thing as reality.

As it is, I have a long list of documents to read so I'll obviously not respond to every single post. That would be a waste of time. If you want a recommendation or two of reading material, you can always send me a PM.👍

But you are correct in arguing there is a wider context and range of actors in this war. It was never about Hamas v Israel as the true source of conflict is Iran who are also strongly distrusted by other Sovereign Powers in the region. It is Iranian IRGC regime who has aggressive proxies dotted around the Middle East being the aggressor towards a tiny State in comparison to their neighbours.

Iran's regime doesn't care much for uninvolved civilians. Saudi & Jordan know this which is why they'll shoot down anything Iran fires.

@Limesodaagain I think that if the Israeli response to October 7th had been more restrained, and our previous government hadn’t supported it, then people would have the band width to consider wider influences. I’m not sure that there are lots of people on here who are naive to them. But the priority for people right now as I see it, is the direct assault on Gaza, which the Israeli government are responsible for, and must stop, regardless of the events and multiple factors that lead to this situation. Neither Israel or Palestine are being well served by their leaders.

I can understand why Palestinians don’t enter the tunnel network ( I think the fact that it is Hamas controlled is another factor )

But the lack of any shelters for Palestinian civilians makes it clear that Hamas (and their Iranian paymasters) do not care about protecting Palestinians. So they bear a huge responsibility for Palestinian civilian deaths.
Lots of people on these threads think all the blame for Palestinian suffering lies with Israel but Hamas/ Iran have demonstrated they are willing to sacrifice innocent Palestinian lives.
Lots of pro Palestinians don’t want to discuss Iranian involvement. The anti Hamas Iranian man on the pro Palestinian March was abused and had to be protected by the police. What does that say about the attitudes of some of the protesters?
Whenever there is an attempt to say this is a complicated conflict it is followed by accusations of being uncaring about the suffering of innocent Palestinians - as if Hamas and Iran aren’t also responsible for the suffering.

Is there any point to your long list of accusations?

Would you rather die in tunnels in the dark or under the sky of your homeland?

A mass evacuation into the tunnel network would be suicide. Poor air quality, limited evacuation routes, immediately becoming 'legitimate' targets (because almost everyone in the tunnel system is regarded as either a combatant or an acceptable casualty/human shield), at risk of being crushed or drowned if the tunnels are flooded.

If all you can choose is the likely means of your death, something relatively quick like a missile strike or a sniper's bullet is probably preferable to asphyxiation, drowning or being crushed underground.

@Limesodaagain in regards to bomb shelters, there's reasons given for the lack of it but I agree there should have been more provisions made for civilian safety.
In regards to why civilians are not sheltering in tunnels, it would be considered that the civilians there are 'human shields' as the tunnels are a military target and the Palestinians know this, it would be unwise for them to hide there even if Hamas allowed it.
Safe zones, schools, hospitals, refugee camps etc are seen as a better and safer option, although we have seen often they are futile too.

@Beljin to want martyrdom it's not an act to maximise civilian death. You need to understand Islam to understand what you've written isn't true.

I'm not sure what's wrong with Palwatch or why my post has been deleted. Regardless, even on twitter there are many examples of (among others):

*children saying on TV (children's programs) that they desire to be martyrs

*parents (fathers and mothers) expressing joy that their child merited to be a martyr (read: murdering terrorist killed in the act)

*teenagers expressing a desire to become martyrs, then going out and acting upon it (by murdering innocent civilians)

*the handing out of sweets and sweet coffee at funerals of dead terrorists

There is a systematic desire and plan of action to maximise civilian casualties, the more gruesome the better. To deny this shows utter detachment from truth and reality.

I understand why Palestinians try to take some comfort from their belief that their loved ones are with God.
I don't agree with everything from @Beljin post but I do agree with the following point
“The question we should be asking, yet hardly anyone does, is why aren't the Palestinian kids in Gaza hiding in bomb shelters? Why does't the Gazaan government - the very same government that's been in power for the past 18 years - allow the civilians to shelter in the tunnels? “

Nothing much to add here, except my sadness for those mothers who have sought to find meaning and comfort in their children’s deaths, and are now being portrayed by some as extremists who wished this to happen.

Are the mothers of soldiers in Israel who have died complicit in their deaths? By raising them in a society with conscription? Shall we now blame them, instead of the ones who actually carried out the violence.

It is not important what Islam itself says in relation to the things Hamas does because its more important what Hamas thinks.

They have a very specific view of martyrdom that absolutely serves their own aims, ends and purposes.

Put it this way, Hamas has an ideology that is Jihadist in nature and, whilst it is not mainstream Islamist, it is a subset of it.

There is a difference between Jihadism and Islamism. This is from the BBC in 2014 - consider it as a primer:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30411519

So, does Jihadism reward Hamas terrorists and other like-minded terrorist organisations?

Yes - the best known example is the concept of 72 virgins in Heaven.

IMO, you have to draw a clear distinction between the religious belief system of Islam and the terrorist belief system of Jihad.

Doing so also means an individual would be much less likely to fall into the problem of Islamophobia since you're showing you understand the important differences between them.

More, importantly, you can distinguish between them.

@Kriscross "Genuine question, are hamas fighters martyred and given the same rewards?"

No not if they have committed acts that is considered an atrocity and goes against Islam.

Ah, Edward Said....so beloved of the Provos. 🤦‍♂️

Do yourself a favour and look at what professional researchers in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism have concluded through their work.

There are some excellent researchers on the subject.

Saying that, there are extremists who would change or manipulate the concept of martyrdom for their own agendas.

@Kriscross you know when the mothers say my child has become a martyr, it doesn't mean that they are glad they are killed but rather as a means of comfort that they are in a better place.

There's so many different causes of death that can make someone a martyr, including things like dying in a fire, dying from drowning, a woman dying during child birth and any sort of unjustified or oppressive death. So for example when the bombing of the refugee camp happen that sparked a fire and caused many deaths, they would all be considered martyrs as they were killed unjustly.
I can try find all the different examples of what would make one a shaheed if you want. And no, someone who was killed after commiting a atrocity themselves would not be considered a martyr.

DownNative Shall I quote Edward Said instead of Amos Oz? Or am I not allowed to utilise the insight and expertise of the dead? Or… more likely, you won’t respect the words of one of the greatest experts and academics on the region’s history because he’s Palestinian and therefore not reinforcing your biased narrative.

Oh dear....Appeal To Authority Fallacy in response. 🙈

Like I said, I look at the work of actual researchers in this field on that issue and others. Helpful I know one or two myself. 👍

For those who are unaware, Amos Oz was a short fiction story writer, essayist and journalist.

Not a professional researcher in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism at all. IIRC, he never claimed to be.

DownNative

Are you an expert? I dare say he was more of an expert than you.

!סַבָּבָּה

With all due respect to Amos Oz, he wasn't a researcher in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism. Indeed, several posters here wouldn't like a good deal of his views such as this one:

"What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery? What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?"

• Amos Oz on Hamas human shield tactic in 2014

Personally, I look at the work of actual researchers in this field on that issue and others.

Indeed, a person living in a region or country of varying degrees of conflict have perceptions of what's happening. But that doesn't translate to those perceptions being accurate in reality, necessarily.

Again, researchers in the field can be very informative even if acquiring empirical evidence on the subject in question can be very challenging (it's elusive).

any god who is good wouldn't want rapists to be given rewards.

Add to this thought the question: What do the Israeli soldiers, charged with aggravated abuse, including rape of a Palestinian soldier, think their reward will be, exoneration and public adoration?
There is no defending weaponised rape on either side. I’m not accusing anyone on this thread of doing so. But there are people who, in their blind support of one side, will justify that side’s most malignant, evil acts.

Oh and no need to zap me. What I’ve written is word for word in The Guardian, Times of Israel, and Haaretz. I’m merely sharing secondhand news that’s being globally reported by journalists in the region.

Add to above, in the belief system of course.

Genuine question, are hamas fighters martyred and given the same rewards?

"In Islam, the concept of martyrdom (shahada in Arabic) refers to the act of sacrificing one's life to testify and bear witness to one's faith and a noble cause. On a deeper spiritual level, it represents the ultimate demonstration of one's commitment and devotion to God and religious principles."

When I read this I wonder what is included in sacrificing ones life ... does that include hamas fighters? They sacrifice themselves for what they believe as well as raping, torturing and kidnapping along the way. They also use the term martyred as many appear to. Does it have different meanings if for a scum hamas rapist? Hopefully so since any god who is good wouldn't want rapists to be given rewards