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Conflict in the Middle East

This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 4)

987 replies

Eyesopenwideawake · 09/07/2024 18:08

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/09/israel-gaza-hamas-hospitals/

I see the old thread is sadly almost full. I wonder how many of these I will start? 😢

OP posts:
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133
Limesodaagain · 25/09/2024 18:08

Auvergne63 · 25/09/2024 16:13

The good old fallacy of "two wrongs make a right". The one that goes ""if others are doing it, I can too".

Two wrongs don’t make a right- agreed.
But it’s not ok to only call out wrongs on one side … I think the PP was just pointing out there are wrongs on both sides

Auvergne63 · 25/09/2024 16:13

StupidFarang · 25/09/2024 15:54

Well, it'll complement the many many cartoons in the Arab press depicting Jews variously as monkeys, apes, and pigs

The good old fallacy of "two wrongs make a right". The one that goes ""if others are doing it, I can too".

anotherlevel · 25/09/2024 16:03

Two wrongs do not make it right

Dulra · 25/09/2024 15:57

StupidFarang · 25/09/2024 15:54

Well, it'll complement the many many cartoons in the Arab press depicting Jews variously as monkeys, apes, and pigs

Which is also very wrong and dehumanising

StupidFarang · 25/09/2024 15:54

Dulra · 25/09/2024 14:26

I think you've massively missed the point

Well, it'll complement the many many cartoons in the Arab press depicting Jews variously as monkeys, apes, and pigs

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 15:11

Dulra · 25/09/2024 14:26

I think you've massively missed the point

Ditto.

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 15:10

BelleHathor · 25/09/2024 14:23

It would be great if the comparison was limited to just Yahya Sinwar, but referring to people as insects is a long used method of propaganda to dehumanise them.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/may/30/comment.israelandthepalestinians

In a committee of the Israeli parliament in 1983, General Rafael Eitan boasted of his triumphs on the West Bank. "All the Arabs will be able to do is scuttle around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle".
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2396301

It would be great if you could provide more recent, relevant comparisons than from a 24 year old opinion piece making another false equivalence with the Holocaust and a hateful anti-Arab statement made nearly 40 years ago during the war with Lebanon, neither of which really relate to the cartoon under discussion.

Dulra · 25/09/2024 14:26

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 14:12

All this concern over Yahya Sinwar's potentially hurty feelings because a cartoonist depicted him as a cockroach is very touching. I'm sure he's crying about it in a tunnel somewhere surrounded by his human shield hostages, stockpiled weapons and supplies while he plans his next massacre of Jewish people.

I think you've massively missed the point

BelleHathor · 25/09/2024 14:23

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 14:12

All this concern over Yahya Sinwar's potentially hurty feelings because a cartoonist depicted him as a cockroach is very touching. I'm sure he's crying about it in a tunnel somewhere surrounded by his human shield hostages, stockpiled weapons and supplies while he plans his next massacre of Jewish people.

It would be great if the comparison was limited to just Yahya Sinwar, but referring to people as insects is a long used method of propaganda to dehumanise them.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/may/30/comment.israelandthepalestinians

In a committee of the Israeli parliament in 1983, General Rafael Eitan boasted of his triumphs on the West Bank. "All the Arabs will be able to do is scuttle around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle".
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2396301

In a state of cruelty

I was struck by two profound quotations from top people in Israel reacting to last week's historic retreat from the Lebanon. The first was from Ephraim Seh, head of Israel's armed forces. He was explaining his decision to allow soldiers from the defeat...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/may/30/comment.israelandthepalestinians

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 14:12

BelleHathor · 25/09/2024 13:57

Even Twitter (which is no stranger to platforming abuse) has limited visibility on the tweet:
Visibility limited: this Post may violate X’s rules against Violent Speech.
And the original post has also been community noted:
"Throughout history dehumanisation has played a key role in the perpetration of atrocities."
https://x.com/Ostrov_A/status/1712750062126662133

All this concern over Yahya Sinwar's potentially hurty feelings because a cartoonist depicted him as a cockroach is very touching. I'm sure he's crying about it in a tunnel somewhere surrounded by his human shield hostages, stockpiled weapons and supplies while he plans his next massacre of Jewish people.

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 14:03

LoremIpsumCici · 25/09/2024 11:37

The link in my first post was to an article on the widely observed dehumanisation of Palestinians through political cartoons and public discourse by the CJPME included an open letter from the Independent Jewish Voice.

The comments on dehumanisation, concerns from genocide experts and comparisons to similar Nazi dehumanisation methods come from CJPME and IJV, referencing the cockroach and IDF boot cartoon. So even if you are not convinced thousands of others do see it, and these include Jewish groups as well.

None of the cartoons I have referenced are “fabrications” I posted them as attached images so they were drawn and were published. They are only a few out of many.

"Fabrication" refers to the inaccurate comparisons and false equivalences being made by some posters, not to the cartoons.

BelleHathor · 25/09/2024 13:57

LoremIpsumCici · 25/09/2024 11:37

The link in my first post was to an article on the widely observed dehumanisation of Palestinians through political cartoons and public discourse by the CJPME included an open letter from the Independent Jewish Voice.

The comments on dehumanisation, concerns from genocide experts and comparisons to similar Nazi dehumanisation methods come from CJPME and IJV, referencing the cockroach and IDF boot cartoon. So even if you are not convinced thousands of others do see it, and these include Jewish groups as well.

None of the cartoons I have referenced are “fabrications” I posted them as attached images so they were drawn and were published. They are only a few out of many.

Even Twitter (which is no stranger to platforming abuse) has limited visibility on the tweet:
Visibility limited: this Post may violate X’s rules against Violent Speech.
And the original post has also been community noted:
"Throughout history dehumanisation has played a key role in the perpetration of atrocities."
https://x.com/Ostrov_A/status/1712750062126662133

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This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 4)
Sensitive content
This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 4)
Dulra · 25/09/2024 13:52

TimeTravellingTyrion · 25/09/2024 13:16

Comparing a cartoon insulting a terrorist leader to the Nazi dehumanisation of Jewish people is disgusting.

It is discussing the use of derogatory cartoon images to dehumanise a population. A method which has been used to dehumanise many groups including Jews.

TimeTravellingTyrion · 25/09/2024 13:16

Comparing a cartoon insulting a terrorist leader to the Nazi dehumanisation of Jewish people is disgusting.

LoremIpsumCici · 25/09/2024 11:37

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 08:15

Context is important, as is not resorting to hyperbole, fabrication or specious Nazi comparisons.

The link in my first post was to an article on the widely observed dehumanisation of Palestinians through political cartoons and public discourse by the CJPME included an open letter from the Independent Jewish Voice.

The comments on dehumanisation, concerns from genocide experts and comparisons to similar Nazi dehumanisation methods come from CJPME and IJV, referencing the cockroach and IDF boot cartoon. So even if you are not convinced thousands of others do see it, and these include Jewish groups as well.

None of the cartoons I have referenced are “fabrications” I posted them as attached images so they were drawn and were published. They are only a few out of many.

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 08:15

Context is important, as is not resorting to hyperbole, fabrication or specious Nazi comparisons.

ConnieCounter · 25/09/2024 07:17

Context for these cartoons is important too. At the moment the Israeli state considers any man in Gaza to be Hamas and torturs/kills them accordingly.

Gaimbin · 25/09/2024 01:31

LoremIpsumCici · 24/09/2024 23:52

@Gaimbin
FFS I’m not suggesting that.

Cartoons that depict people of an ethnicity as insects or animals are recognised as dehumanising the entire ethnic group even if the cartoon only depicts one well known person of that ethnicity.

Dehumanisation is why the cartoon showing Prince Harry with a chimpanzee bride was banned for racist dehumanisation of Black people. Dehumanisation was why Nazi propaganda depicting a Jewish person as a pig or rat was antisemitic - there are over 900 examples of such antisemtic dehumanisation imagery in the Holocaust museum and most of them portray 1 person.

It has been well studied by genocide experts that such imagery is not innocently metaphorical and this dehumanisation creates the sort of fertile ground that paves the way from racism to apartheid to genocide.

Edited

A cockroach with Yahya Sinwar's face and a green Hamas headband, depicting Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader who planned and executed October 7th, bringing bloody catastrophe down on the heads of Israelis and Palestinians alike. Not the Palestinian people.

Extremism emanating from Iran depicted as cockroaches swarming from a drain clearly labelled "Iran extremism". Not the Iranian or Palestinian people.

A wasps' nest clearly labelled "Hamas" so the wasps obviously represent Hamas. Not the Palestinian people.

I'm not convinced the 'genocide experts' would agree with your assessment as none of the cartoons you've posted are comparable to Nazi propaganda, the ways in which the Nazis used imagery to dehumanise Jewish people or outright racism against a Black woman.

LoremIpsumCici · 24/09/2024 23:58

YoYoYoYo12345 · 24/09/2024 19:35

It would be right if also they suggested Iran stopped arming Hamas and Hezbollah. Guess that's not important 😕

Edited

Oxfam is saying it to their own government who is elected to represent British people and entities. It would be as pointless for a British charity to suggest something to a foreign government as it would for an Iranian charity to suggest something to the British government.

LoremIpsumCici · 24/09/2024 23:52

@Gaimbin
FFS I’m not suggesting that.

Cartoons that depict people of an ethnicity as insects or animals are recognised as dehumanising the entire ethnic group even if the cartoon only depicts one well known person of that ethnicity.

Dehumanisation is why the cartoon showing Prince Harry with a chimpanzee bride was banned for racist dehumanisation of Black people. Dehumanisation was why Nazi propaganda depicting a Jewish person as a pig or rat was antisemitic - there are over 900 examples of such antisemtic dehumanisation imagery in the Holocaust museum and most of them portray 1 person.

It has been well studied by genocide experts that such imagery is not innocently metaphorical and this dehumanisation creates the sort of fertile ground that paves the way from racism to apartheid to genocide.

Gaimbin · 24/09/2024 21:49

LoremIpsumCici · 24/09/2024 18:34

Yahya Sinwar is a Palestinian is he not? So if this Palestinian is a cockroach with blood dripping from fangs and demon tongue, then wouldn’t all Palestinians similarly be cockroaches? Similar images have been banned for dehumanising an ethnic group even when it is only featuring a known person of importance from that ethnicity.

As it is, I have another two dehumanising Israeli cartoons for you. Look at who is being portrayed as a human and who is being portrayed as a wasp or cockroach. How would you feel if Nethanyu had been drawn as something other than a human?

Yahya Sinwar is a Palestinian is he not? He is indeed.

So if this Palestinian is a cockroach with blood dripping from fangs and demon tongue, then wouldn’t all Palestinians similarly be cockroaches?
Not at all. I'm shocked that you've suggested all Palestinians are cockroaches, that's incredibly dehumanising. There's only Yahya Sinwar in that cartoon so it's obviously referring only to him. Maybe it would've been more accurate if Yahya Sinwar had been portrayed as a leech? Maybe a spider in his web?

Similar images have been banned for dehumanising an ethnic group even when it is only featuring a known person of importance from that ethnicity.
You'll have to be more specific because it's not clear what you're referring to.

Look at who is being portrayed as a human and who is being portrayed as a wasp or cockroach.
Both of these cartoons are employing visual metaphors.
If you look properly at the first cartoon, it's referring to the wretched consequences of extremism (It actually says "EXTREMISM" on the drain) spreading or swarming out from Iran over the region, like cockroaches from a drain. The ideology not the people.
In the second cartoon, the wasps' nest is still wholly intact and all that's happening is Netanyahu is covered in stings and plasters. It unflatteringly portrays him as ineffectual, stupid and only hurting himself and highlights the futility of both parties' inability to break the cycle. It reads more like a criticism of Netanyahu than anything else.

How would you feel if Nethanyu had been drawn as something other than a human? I think I'd cope.

HRTQueen · 24/09/2024 21:24

I’m not surprised at all hateful parents teach children to be hateful

Let’s not forget there was a surge to the right in the last election, for years West Bank settlers have been allowed to get away with taking land and many Isrealis hate Palestinians they think of them as animals

Yes for balance many Palestinians hate Israelis

but we all know one group holds power

ConnieCounter · 24/09/2024 20:40

It's so outrageous that adults would behave like this. It's unbelievable. School should be a safe place for children but the teachers and principal here, and some in the Education Ministry behaved appallingly. It's a chilling insight into what certain groups living in Israel have to endure.

Silence1 · 24/09/2024 20:12

ScrollingLeaves · 24/09/2024 14:36

Haaretz

'Your Village Should Be Burned'|
Arab Israeli Girl, 12, Suspended From School After Empathizing With Gazan Children

In a class discussion, the girl said that children in Gaza were dying of hunger. Classmates said her village should burn, and allegedly attacked her after class. The school told parents said they suspended her to protect her, but Education Ministry officials accused her of 'inciting against the army'

A Be'er Sheva high school suspended an Israeli Arab pupil last week after she expressed solidarity with Gazan children.

That is seriously disturbing

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