This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 4)

@ToBeDetermined

"The policy of responding to aggression with overwhelming and disporportionate force being a deterrence is crutch. It has never stopped independence revolutions or resistence movements anywhere or anywhen. It guarantees future war by creating more justification for those fighting the larger power. "

Whilst I agree that responding to aggression with overwhelming or disproportionate force hasn't always stopped independence or resistance movements, there have been many examples of where it has.

For example in N Ireland the UK military was definitely the overwhelming force. Peace came about by a combination of a military defeat of the IRA and a majority desire by the population both sides of the border for peace and economic prosperity that cut away the support for the republicans.

The UK used disproportionate force against Argentina in the Falklands war - would you see that as wrong?

The UK used overwhelming and disproportionate force in the wars in the Malay revolution and also the Omani civil war - would you also see that as wrong.

In the case of Israel both Hamas and Hezbollah want the destruction of the entire Israeli State - how do you respond to that other than removing Hamas and Hezbollah from power or agreeing to end of Israel as a Jewish state?

@ToBeDetermined

"If we were to retrospectively apply the law on war crimes, then yes the US was the biggest war criminal of all for dropping nuclear bombs in two major Japanese cities."

Firstly thank you for engaging in a rational logical debate rather than whataboutery or buzz word bingo.

Regarding the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan what would you prefer to have happened?

The Japanese were never going to surrender and taking Japan conventionally would have seen massive US casualties.

@1dayatatime the mass bombing philosophies that developed during the interwar has been incredibly well documented. The allied bombing of Germany was questioned in Parliament during the war.

The British and Americans inflicted massive damage on the German population for relatively small tactical gains. Note that when the allies did want precision tactical strikes they didn't use heavy bombers.

I wanted to clarify, that my biggest war criminal of all comment is out of your three examples of Japan, Soviet Union and USA, not all of WWII.

It removes the deterrence that if a smaller side starts a war then they could end up being annihilated.

The policy of responding to aggression with overwhelming and disporportionate force being a deterrence is crutch. It has never stopped independence revolutions or resistence movements anywhere or anywhen. It guarantees future war by creating more justification for those fighting the larger power.

Also how would it ever be possible to conduct a war or avoid a war in future when one side knows that it can attack a much stronger adversary and rely on the fact that if they retaliate then it would only be proportionate.

If you can conduct a war with overwhelming disporportionate force, then you can turn down the force and conduct a war that is within the rules of war. It’s not impossible to adjust the force used.

The way to avoid wars and end wars is through political and diplomatic solutions. War is failure by the involved parties to work things out like responsible adults.

@1dayatatime
The rules defining war crimes and porportionality were all legislated after WWII so your WWII examples are disingenuous. If we were to retrospectively apply the law on war crimes, then yes the US was the biggest war criminal of all for dropping nuclear bombs in two major Japanese cities.

@EasterIssland

"There is no rule that allows committing war crimes"

Oh there absolutely are rules regarding war crimes but these tend to be implemented by the winning side. For example the Soviet Union military committed way more war crimes against the German military but none of the Soviet military were ever prosecuted because they were on the winning side.

In any event the point I am discussing is proportionality in warfare and not war crimes.

There is no rule that allows committing war crimes

I have to question how many 'command and control' centres there can possibly be. Hamas were about 1% of the population of Gaza, they have destroyed about 70% of buildings, they have killed according to them about 2/3rds of Hamas, that leaves 10,000 terrorists. How if your strikes are so targeted have you managed to destroy 70% of the place using 'intelligence' to find 1% of the population yet you are blowing up more 'command centres' everyday in a place that you have cut off from the world? Like I know the line Hamas embed themselves in civilian infrastructure but surely they would have to be magicians for 1% of the population to embed themselves in 70% of buildings, well actually given they have only found 2/3rds of Hamas the numbers would surely mean that 1% of the population have managed to embed themselves in 100% of civillian infrastructure?! How are they managing to move around so freely and set up these 'control centres' pretty much everywhere when you have so much 'intelligence', have people herded wherever you want them and drones everywhere? Maybe I am missing something but the numbers don't seem to be adding up to me?

@Daftasabroom

"Allied bombing of Japan and Germany was absolutely disproportionate"

Thank you for a clear and perfectly reasonable point of view.

But what would you suggest the USA should have done instead. Sanctions?

Also how would it ever be possible to conduct a war or avoid a war in future when one side knows that it can attack a much stronger adversary and rely on the fact that if they retaliate then it would only be proportionate.

It removes the deterrence that if a smaller side starts a war then they could end up being annihilated.

It's a bit like walking up to a heavy weight boxer punching them feebly (well in my case feebly) on the nose and then complaining about proportionality when they punch me back, knocking me clean out.

Allied bombing of Japan and Germany was absolutely disproportionate.

There is no rule in warfare that states that if you start a war you can then complain about disproportionately losing more lives than the other side.

And the reality is that Hamas is the governing entity of Gaza, although I am sure that there are many Gazans who quietly dislike Hamas.

The USA lost 2,300 military and civilian lives in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. The resulting war against Japan then cost between 2.6 and 3.1 million Japanese lives. Does this mean that the USA was in the wrong in this conflict because the retaliation was disproportionate? And if so what would you suggest they did instead?

Equally the reality at that time was that military dictatorship in Japan at the time was the governing entity, although I am again sure there were many Japanese who quietly disliked them.

This is heartbreaking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jwv16qwqjo

Gaza 2022 vs 2024

https://x.com/AricToler/status/1842285462628483120

BBC News reported on the spotter IDF girls at Nahal Oz on Oct 7, how their warnings of the impending attack were ignored, and how they were unprotected.

Nama Levy’s mother spoke. She and other parents would like answers as to how this could have happened. It is awful- Nama Levy had only been doing that job for two days. To think the girls taken that day are still captives a year later, it is horrific.

It is impossible for them.

More than a decade of Israeli restrictions on imports and travel mean disabled people in Gaza were living without treatment and equipment long before the first missiles fell. Over the past year, Israel’s humanitarian blockade has further stripped disabled civilians of what they need to survive, from assistive devices to medication and specialist food. Others have lost their mobility aids in the bombing and have no way to escape.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/04/disabled-palestinians-horrors-bombing-medications

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg7825rk8j9o

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2024/oct/04/israel-told-not-alone-but-year-war-isolated

Some excerpts from this article which is well worth reading.

‘To avenge 7 October, crimes of all kinds are condoned. But politicians should take note: the British public disagrees’

‘Two thirds of voters now have an unfavourable view of Israel, compared with 17% opting for favourable: a record low. Seven in 10 believe it likely that Israel has committed war crimes (just 8% dissent), while 54% believe an arrest warrant should be issued for Benjamin Netanyahu for war crimes and crimes against humanity (with 15% dissenting).’

‘What exactly is Israel supposed to do to shake this? It has conducted the worst massacre of children in our time, from reported sniper shots to the heads of infants to butchering terrified families in their cars, and now it is clear it deliberately starved an entire population. It stands accused of raping maleand female detainees alike, while Save the Children condemns Israeli soldiers for sexually abusing Palestinian children in prisons. It has killed at least 885 healthcare workers, and left women having caesarians and children having amputations without anaesthetics. Its soldiers push Palestinian bodies from roofs in scenes reminiscent of Islamic State. Meanwhile, Israeli ministers, politicians, army officers, soldiers and journalists compete overbloodcurdling murderous and genocidal rhetoric.’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/03/slaughter-gaza-women-children-israel-7-october

Truly obscene action on the part of the IDF.

It was also wrong on the part of that one Hamas fighter imo, who went there among the civilians and made so many innocents a co-target of the indiscriminately murderous IDF. ( He should have hidden himself anywhere else.)

Watching Sky News in Lebanon, now actual reporters can get in, the reality of how imprecise the IDF can be is clear.

Yes you're probably right 😔

I don't believe that there was actually a Hamas figure there. They always use that excuse. They never provide proof. It's just a low effort attempt to cover up their crime of deliberately targeting children.

It's absolutely heart breaking. It should have been stopped ages ago. 😢

I can't accept that you can bomb and kill your way to peace and reconciliation, either. Slaughtering children will NEVER achieve it. All it will bring is the opposite.