This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 4)

They do say that genocides are a type of group madness.
To think that a PR professional can seriously approve that statement that is essentially:

we are not genocidal, but we think Palestinians want to kill us so we are going to kill them all first

“In the original recording, we made it very clear that we did NOT call for the genocide of the Palestinians..”

”we entertained a hypothetical situation that would rid Israel of the imminent threat posed by our Palestinian enemies who OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORT HAMAS and wish to kill us all..”

”it is obvious to any Israeli that the only way to guarantee our future and safety here is to remove this threat from our vicinity, forever...”

”People from Gaza, the PA, and all around the world who support Hamas - are actively seeking to kill us and destroy the only Jewish state. And if you want to kill us - we will rise and kill you first.”

That article is without the links. You can find it with links on archive ph by using the headline.

Not terrorism?.…. but what is it?

Haaretz Sept 8
Israeli Society Has Truly Fallen to Cruelty, Violence and Apathy. Just Look at Us

On Friday, 11 funerals were held in the Jenin refugee camp. Eight of the deceased were camp residents who were killed by the Israeli army; three died of natural causes. None of them could be buried during the 10 preceding days, on account of the brutal Israel Defense Forces operation in the camp. The bodies of another five people were seized by the army, for its purposes.

On Friday morning the IDF left the camp, after completing the mission that was given the sadistic name Operation Summer Camp, and residents began returning to what was left of their homes after the army's camp. They were in shock.

One man said Saturday that the sights were even worse than the scenes of destruction after 2002’s Operation Defensive Shield and that the behaviour of the soldiers during those 10 terrible days was more violent and vicious than ever before. The spirit of the war in Gaza has become the zeitgeist of the army.

My interlocutor, Jamal Zubeidi – who had already lost nine family members to the Palestinian struggle, including two of his sons, and who last week lost Hamudi, the son of his nephew Zakaria Zabeidi – returned once again to a ruined home, as in 2002. During the 10 days of the operation, he hid in his daughter's home on the mountain. About two-thirds of the camp's approximately 12,000 residents were removed from it, led in refugee columns under the supervision of the soldiers, as in Gaza.

As the people of Jenin buried their dead, soldiers shot and killed a 13 year old girl Bana Laboum died in her home in the village of Qaryout, whose residents tried to defend themselves after settlers set fire to their fields. The settlers riot, the army comes – and kills Palestinians, oddly enough. "Confrontations," the media calls the incidents. The rape victim confronts their rapist, the robbery victim their robber. In the insanity of the occupation, the aggressor is the victim and the victim is the aggressor.

At around the same time, not far from Qaryout, in the village of Beita, soldiers killed a protester – an American human-rights activist who was also a Turkish citizen Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi was shot in the head during a demonstration against the wildcat settlement Evyatar, which was built on the village's land and has already cost the lives of at least seven Palestinians.

The White House said that it was "deeply disturbed by the tragic death." But this was not a "tragic death." Jonathan Pollak, a Haaretz journalist said that he saw the soldiers on a rooftop: "I saw the soldiers shooting. … I saw them aiming," adding that at the time there were no active clashes. As to the "deep disturbance" in the White House, it will pass quickly.

President Joe Biden has not called the woman's family, as he called the Goldberg-Polin family; Ezgi Eygi was also not declared an American hero, as was Hersh Goldberg-Polin, who was abducted and executed.

On Saturday, Josh Breiner published a video filmed in Megiddo prison the morning of the criminal killings, in which dozens of Palestinians lie on the floor – prostrate, half-naked, their wrists bound behind their backs – as Israeli guards walk past them; one holds a police dog that passes inches from the detainees' faces, barking viciously.

The Israeli flag flies over this disgraceful spectacle – a gift to Itamar Ben-Gvir. The Israel Prison Service reassured the handful of outraged observers: "It's a routine exercise." This is routine. A common prison service entertainment, a Shabbat ceremony for the sadistic guards.

All this happened on Friday, an ordinary day. Israel yawned. It was much more upset by the (infuriating)arrest of a young Jewish woman who threw a handful of sand at Ben-Givr than by the fatal shooting of a non-Jewish woman who was motivated by principle no less than the young woman from Tel Aviv.

And in the ruins of the Jenin refugee camp, Jamal Zubeidi tried to gauge the extent of the damage to his home, the contents of which soldiers threw into the street. There was no power in the camp, and darkness descended on it. In all our long years of friendship, I had never heard Zubeidi sound more despairing. "They will return and we will return. A new generation will come. It won't end here," he said wearily.

Look at what happened Friday in the Jenin refugee camp, in Qaryout, in Beita and in Megiddo Prison – and perhaps you will see us, finally.

@TimeTravellingTyrion Not terrorism. Fine. But what do you think they should do to stop everything that @AhNowTed has outlined? Do you think they should just lie down and take everything that they've been through? Do they have a right to defend themselves and protect what's theirs too?

Should Palestinians just lie down and accept/die as a result of the actions summarised in @AhNowTed 's post? Are these things you would accept for yourself or your loved ones?

Interesting double standard.

You might want to look up terrorism.

OED:
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

HTH.

Not terrorism. HTH.

What would you deem an appropriate resistance.

And before we go there, no I am absolutely not defending or condoning Hamas’s actions on 7/10. Far from it.

Under International Law, and the Geneva Convention, Palestinians have a right to resist an occupation, including armed resistance. Just like any other country does under a foreign occupation.

What would you have expected from the Palestinians:

Gaza:
Gaza has been living under an occupation for 76 years

Israel controls their land borders

Israel controls their air space

Israel controls their sea borders – to the point where their fishermen are restricted to an area no further than 6Km, dictated by Israel

Isreal controls what comes in and out of Gaza, be it food, medicine, or even basic materials

Israel controls who comes in and out of Gaza, to the point that foreign journalists are banned.

West Bank
Israel has stolen their land

750,000 Israelis now live in illegal settlements on Palestinian land

Israel daily bulldozes their homes

Violent settlers terrorize Palestinians with impunity, setting fire to their homes, their olive trees, attacking them with weapons, and all escorted and protected by the IDF and Israeli Police, with the full knowledge of the Israeli government.

If they complain, the Palestinian victim is arrested.

In 2023 alone in the West Bank, prior to Oct 7, over 500 Palestinians were shot by the IDF, including over 100 children

Almost 10,000 Palestinians are held in brutal detention centres under “administrative detention”, in other words without charge or trial, never mind a lawyer.

In the West Bank, while Israelis are ruled by civil law, Palestinians are ruled by military law. An apartheid system of one rule for Israelis, another for Palestinians.

Palestinians are subjected every day to walls and turnstiles restricting their movement. Only an Israeli can give them access.

Roads are designated Israeli only that Palestinians are not allowed to use.

Under the Oslo agreement of 1995, the West Bank is split into 3 areas:

Area A – administered by the Palestinian Authority – 18%
Area B – administered by the Palestinian Authority, joint Palestinian/Israeli security - 22%
Area C – full Israeli civil and security control - 60%

In other words, Palestinians are in full control of 18% of “their” land, and Israel 82%.

Members of the Knesset, most notably government ministers, routinely dehumanize Palestinians, to the point where the rape of a Palestinian detainee is condoned and defended, and the glorification of further settlements on Palestinian land is routine, and the funding of the illegal settlements is government policy.

And back to today, Israel is committing a Genocide (in the opinion of world-renowned Israeli genocide expert Amos Goldberg, former IDF soldier and historian Omer Bartov, respected Israeli historian Elan Pappe, prominent folks like Noam Chomsky and Bernie Sanders, human rights organizations in Israel like B’selem, Mistaclim and ICAHD – far too many to mention, never mind the multitude of doctors from the US, Britain and elsewhere, the tens of global aid organisations in Gaza), and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

And as we all know, the current Netanyahu government has absolutely zero interest and forming any kind of peace, never mind a Palestinian state or any kind of self-determination.

Again, what response would you like to expect from the Palestinians?

These two deaths at the hands of IDF were completely unnecessary, and wanton.

They wete needless attacks on harmless people who were being harassed by settlers, one a gifted little girl in her bedroom.

The attacks are of a nature that seems to find Arab lives in the West Bank to be entirely disposable.

The combination of these IDF attacks together with the Israeli settlers’ harassment is terrorism carried out/enabled by a state.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/07/west-bank-residents-teargas-shots-us-woman-death-israel-defence-forces-inquiry-killing

Not if that resistance takes the form of terrorists like Hamas.

@TimeTravellingTyrion

Do you believe that Palestinians have no right to resist?

There are many articles on that website that refer to Hamas as the resistance and the hostages as prisoners of war. Most articles that mention Hamas call them the resistance, but if you don't feel like actually looking:

https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-troops-return-to-fight-resistance-in-gazas-al-zaytoun-for-seventh-time

https://thecradle.co/articles/devil-in-the-details-how-hrw-laundered-israels-7-october-falsehoods

https://thecradle.co/articles/behind-enemy-bars-palestinian-and-israeli-prisoners

https://thecradle.co/articles/the-flood-from-gaza

https://thecradle.co/articles/germanys-blind-support-for-israel-in-gaza

@TimeTravellingTyrion
You posted “Do you think that calling Hamas "the resistance" and the hostages prisoners of war is okay? “
I asked you to be specific about your allegations about a free on line publication that reported on the the Pew survey in question.
Rather than accepting the findings of the report, or debating the findings on their own merits or lack thereof, both the OP and mumsnet were painted as racist.
Context is important.
For example, here is an account of an interview with Gerry Adams that was published in both Der Spiegal and the Irish Times( a paper sometimes referred to disparagingly as “West Brit”, so at the opposite end of the spectrum to Irish Nationalism).
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/violence-can-be-a-legitimate-way-to-achieve-aims-adams-says-1.3454352
This doesn’t mean that either publication supports the path of violence.

.

I'm not sure what you mean.

or shot at kids on their head or those protesting against something illegal (settlers)

can you imagine if British forces shot at the head of people attending a demonstration what the uproar would it be?

Nobody was forced to gang rape prisoners either.

Or torture healthcare professionals.

Or bomb aid workers.

Or fire on an ambulance travelling on a coordinated route trying to reach a child who had just watched her family die.

Etc.

Hamas have done many terrible things. Nobody here has said otherwise.

Many of the terrible things done by Israeli forces are things they chose to do.

For example, nobody was forced to tie up my friends and shoot them in the head. Someone chose to do that.

@TimeTravellingTyrion Was this in the context of an interview or was it an opinion column or was it an op ed piece? Did it reflect the views of the editorial board? Or maybe you’re living outside Europe
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41430505.html

This is an interesting report from CNN about the plight of Bedouin Arab-Israelis in the Negev dessert.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/07/middleeast/israel-bedouins-arabs-unrecognized-villages-neglected-hamas-war-mime-intl/index.html

The little girl hit by shrapnel from the Lebanon strike last May, and the recently freed hostage Al-Qadi are from here.

They live without water, electricity, iron- dome protection, hospitals or schools yet even in these dessert conditions their meagre villages are bulldozed by the Israeli government for various reasons.

Their plight has worsened significantly since a far-right government came to power in 2022, residents told CNN. In August of last year, National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir attended the demolition of an unrecognized village near Tel Arad in the Negev, Israeli media reported. The minister called the demolition “sacred work,” and said the residents should “understand that we govern here, that there are landlords in this country.”

Im finding them upsetting. In the last few weeks with the protests against the government in Israel i was hoping a good majority of Israelis wanted to live in peace with their neighbours and would want Palestinians to live without restrictions.

in the last few days several polls are being published where a 60% of those interviewed don’t align with these views (not only this one but the one about rapped Palestinians by idf members) and also the podcast from a few days ago “all Israelis want to press that button to destroy Gaza”

I was hoping with the demonstrations in Israel that there would soon be a ceasefire and hopefully 2 countries living in peace with decent politicians (not sure this that even exist tho seeing the politicians around the world). But I feel we are far from it

Ha my post pointing out antisemitism was deleted again. What did I say that was inaccurate? I mentioned examples of things I've seen on this board but that's not okay apparently. I'm not allowed to say that I've seen threads insulting the Torah or defending holocaust deniers or defending people who laugh at 7/10 or denying that Hamas are antisemitic or claiming Hamas have the right to "armed resistance". People are allowed to say these things, I'm not allowed to say that people have said these things. What a website.

Do you think that calling Hamas "the resistance" and the hostages prisoners of war is okay? Because if you do then nothing anyone says will convince you

I found the Pew report depressing reading, but I wasn't surprised - it was fairly consistent with what people have told me about the challenges faced by people expressing views about the conflict.