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Conflict in the Middle East
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Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:13

Arconialiving · 29/06/2024 21:11

You have articulated this so well. I honestly can't believe anyone who believes in democracy & women's rights etc supporting Hamas at all. Horrendous terrorist group. Bring the hostages home should surely be what people are focusing on!

Who is supporting Hamas?

Arconialiving · 29/06/2024 21:11

Shutupaboutthesun · 29/06/2024 18:06

To my mind, the problem with being 'Pro-Palestine' is that the core of the Palestinian Arab political project has always been about expelling or exterminating the Jews. It is not and never has been a project centred on human rights, or about building a functioning state for themselves.

The violent racism of the Palestinian Arabs goes way back, to before the founding of Israel, with pogroms like the 1929 massacre of Hebron's Jewish community (which bore eerily similar features to the pogrom of Oct 7, including the killing of infants and the elderly, and the sexual mutilation of women).

Anti-Jewish hatred among Arabs is not an outgrowth of the military occupation in the West Bank and predates the modern state of Israel by centuries. It is hard for people who don't know much about the history of the Middle East, and the subjugation of non-Arab minorities (Jews, Samaritans, Assyrians, Yazidis, Druze, Copts) after the Arab Conquest, to understand this. To them, the Palestinian Arabs look like the underdogs, while the well-armed Jews look like the bullies. Back when I knew little about the history of the conflict and just consumed left-leaning media, I used to think this too.

But after living in Israel for a year and reading more widely, I realised that it is the other way around: the Palestinians are the primary aggressors in this conflict. You can be the weaker party and still be the aggressor. Their military and economic weakness does not deter them from continuing to start wars, because they believe that ultimately 450 million Arabs will overcome 7 million Jews. That's why the Palestinians have turned down every offer of a state made to them. They don't want a state, they want the Jews gone and Arab Muslim supremacy restored over the one tiny part of the Middle East that has thus far evaded it.

Something like 80 per cent of Palestinians support Hamas. At a conference in 2021, Hamas laid out its vision for a 'free Palestine' and outlined what would happen to Jews in it:

  1. Jews who had served in the IDF (which is most Israeli Jews) were to be killed.
  2. Jews who had not served in the IDF (basically the Ultra-Orthodox) could be merely ethnically cleansed.
  3. Jews who converted to Islam could be 'integrated into the state'.
  4. 'Educated Jews' (the scientists, doctors and engineers) were to be enslaved, not allowed to leave the new state of Palestine, but forced to work, for free, for the Arabs.

This is the vision that a supermajority of Palestinians have for a 'free Palestine': one in which Jews are either killed, ethnically cleansed, forcibly converted or enslaved. This, therefore, is what it means to be 'Pro-Palestine'. I don't understand how anybody sane could align themselves with this, but Damon Albarn and most of the British Left disagree, it seems.

You have articulated this so well. I honestly can't believe anyone who believes in democracy & women's rights etc supporting Hamas at all. Horrendous terrorist group. Bring the hostages home should surely be what people are focusing on!

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:10

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:08

Did you read my post properly @dulra?
It depends on the context

Maybe you need to explain it to me. I understood it to mean people showing support for Palestinians but not calling out the atrocities of Oct 7th are anti-semitic?

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:08

TheCadoganArms · 29/06/2024 21:02

I have just come back from Pride. Watching several blokes in glitter sequined hot pants waving assorted 'Queers for Palestine' banners and flags was somewhat ironic.

somewhat ironic.
Not really, they can clearly separate solidarity with people currently suffering unimaginable pain and trauma to actually living under a terrorist regime like Hamas

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:08

Did you read my post properly @dulra?
It depends on the context

Dulra · 29/06/2024 21:05

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:01

It could if they are cheering for Palestine whose governing body carried out the worst ever terrorist attack yet not acknowledged it at a music festival.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html

Edited

It could if they are cheering for Palestine whose governing body carried out the worst ever terrorist attack yet not acknowledged it at a music festival.
So support for Palestine is anti-semitic?

TheCadoganArms · 29/06/2024 21:02

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 20:28

From the Daily Telegraph just now:

Jewish LGBT charity pulls out of Pride in London
Decision comes as leaked messages show pro-Palestinian activists planning demonstrations during parade which celebrates inclusivity

You couldn't make it up

Edited

I have just come back from Pride. Watching several blokes in glitter sequined hot pants waving assorted 'Queers for Palestine' banners and flags was somewhat ironic.

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 21:01

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 20:23

@Limesodaagain

"I think this thread sounds very much as if you don’t care too much about the victims of the Nova festival"

And you would be 100% wrong about that.

I have been to Israel many times. I worked for an Israeli company as their country manager in Europe for 10 years. I have many Israeli friends.

Compassion for Palestinians makes absolutely no one an antisemite.

It could if they are cheering for Palestine whose governing body carried out the worst ever terrorist attack yet not acknowledged it at a music festival.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html

Sussurations · 29/06/2024 21:00

BelleHathor · 29/06/2024 20:46

Absolutely nothing, I think the sight of the crowd loudly cheering, has shattered some people's perception of support for Israel.
Hence the cries of Celebrities are vacuous etc.

It’s depressing that at a music festival, there was no mention of a massacre at another music festival. It’s depressing that people cheer a pop star’s trite, shallow political soundbites - depressing, but not even slightly surprising.

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:48

Scirocco · 29/06/2024 20:46

I do think it's a shame that, as far as I can see, not a single festival in the UK this summer seems to have had any actual recognition or commemoration of the Nova massacre.

Thank you . I agree. They were just innocent young people. I’m so very sad for the innocent young people in Gaza also whose lives are being destroyed. None of them deserve this

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:47

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:42

All of that is absolutely hideous. I would never condone anyone who minimised the suffering of people in Gaza. I agree that there are people who do that and it’s sickening.

I have no problem with celebrities reminding us of what’s happening in Gaza but it would be good at a festival to remember the innocent festival goers at Nova.

BelleHathor · 29/06/2024 20:46

EasterIssland · 29/06/2024 20:35

What does it have to do with this thread ?

Absolutely nothing, I think the sight of the crowd loudly cheering, has shattered some people's perception of support for Israel.
Hence the cries of Celebrities are vacuous etc.

Scirocco · 29/06/2024 20:46

I do think it's a shame that, as far as I can see, not a single festival in the UK this summer seems to have had any actual recognition or commemoration of the Nova massacre.

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:42

Scirocco · 29/06/2024 20:39

"If you’re only sympathetic to one group of innocent victims then how caring are you really?"

I feel like this is a very relevant question to ask, when we have people expressing hatred of innocent people in Palestine, using the pain of innocent people as a source of amusement, claiming that innocent people deserve to be strapped to the front of moving vehicles, asserting that the deaths of innocent children are justified, etc etc.

I also feel like we know the answer to the question already.

All of that is absolutely hideous. I would never condone anyone who minimised the suffering of people in Gaza. I agree that there are people who do that and it’s sickening.

Scirocco · 29/06/2024 20:39

"If you’re only sympathetic to one group of innocent victims then how caring are you really?"

I feel like this is a very relevant question to ask, when we have people expressing hatred of innocent people in Palestine, using the pain of innocent people as a source of amusement, claiming that innocent people deserve to be strapped to the front of moving vehicles, asserting that the deaths of innocent children are justified, etc etc.

I also feel like we know the answer to the question already.

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:37

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:34

Forgive me but the idea that festival goers in this country can congratulate themselves on how caring they are while refusing to think about fellow murdered festival goers has rather made me roll my eyes .

And I also roll my eyes at all the celebrities using the current horror to promote themselves.
Glastonbury showing solidarity with Gaza … No nuance indeed.

EasterIssland · 29/06/2024 20:35

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 20:28

From the Daily Telegraph just now:

Jewish LGBT charity pulls out of Pride in London
Decision comes as leaked messages show pro-Palestinian activists planning demonstrations during parade which celebrates inclusivity

You couldn't make it up

Edited

What does it have to do with this thread ?

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:34

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 20:31

@Limesodaagain

"If you’re only sympathetic to one group of innocent victims then how caring are you really ? How difficult is it to say you agree that festival goers should show solidarity for murdered innocent festival goers in Israel? If the sympathy is absent because of their race and religion then that is racist ."

And that is a gross misrepresentation of the situation.

You know, folks can be horrified by the slaughter of Palestinians and Israelis.

Forgive us, but the ongoing mass slaughter of Palestinians like ducks in a barrel has rather caught our eye.

Forgive me but the idea that festival goers in this country can congratulate themselves on how caring they are while refusing to think about fellow murdered festival goers has rather made me roll my eyes .

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 20:31

@Limesodaagain

"If you’re only sympathetic to one group of innocent victims then how caring are you really ? How difficult is it to say you agree that festival goers should show solidarity for murdered innocent festival goers in Israel? If the sympathy is absent because of their race and religion then that is racist ."

And that is a gross misrepresentation of the situation.

You know, folks can be horrified by the slaughter of Palestinians and Israelis.

Forgive us, but the ongoing mass slaughter of Palestinians like ducks in a barrel has rather caught our eye.

keenforhelp · 29/06/2024 20:28

From the Daily Telegraph just now:

Jewish LGBT charity pulls out of Pride in London
Decision comes as leaked messages show pro-Palestinian activists planning demonstrations during parade which celebrates inclusivity

You couldn't make it up

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:27

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 20:23

@Limesodaagain

"I think this thread sounds very much as if you don’t care too much about the victims of the Nova festival"

And you would be 100% wrong about that.

I have been to Israel many times. I worked for an Israeli company as their country manager in Europe for 10 years. I have many Israeli friends.

Compassion for Palestinians makes absolutely no one an antisemite.

If you’re only sympathetic to one group of innocent victims then how caring are you really ? How difficult is it to say you agree that festival goers should show solidarity for murdered innocent festival goers in Israel? If the sympathy is absent because of their race and religion then that is racist .

AhNowTed · 29/06/2024 20:23

@Limesodaagain

"I think this thread sounds very much as if you don’t care too much about the victims of the Nova festival"

And you would be 100% wrong about that.

I have been to Israel many times. I worked for an Israeli company as their country manager in Europe for 10 years. I have many Israeli friends.

Compassion for Palestinians makes absolutely no one an antisemite.

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:22

stormy4319trevor · 29/06/2024 20:21

You are not supposed to derail @Limesodaagain against the rules, I think?

Oh well- report me 🙄

Limesodaagain · 29/06/2024 20:22

Much as I’m horrified by what’s happening in Gaza - I’m also horrified by how little some people care about the suffering of innocent people who just happen to be on the “wrong side”

stormy4319trevor · 29/06/2024 20:21

You are not supposed to derail @Limesodaagain against the rules, I think?

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