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Conflict in the Middle East
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keenforhelp · 30/06/2024 16:08

Well said.

Support for Palestine at Glastonbury
Auvergne63 · 30/06/2024 16:08

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 15:49

Am I understanding you correctly.

Nobody knows what Hamas is doing to protect civilians because Israel won’t let them find out?

Any other conflicts have had neutral observers and/or war journalists present.
Their roles have been well documented and, in my opinion, incredibly important to bear witness to what is happening at the time (from both sides).
The complete media blackout in Gaza by the Israeli government raises questions. I think it goes without saying.

AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 16:07

Did you not get enough traffic on your other thread?

cupcaske123 · 30/06/2024 16:04

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 15:49

Am I understanding you correctly.

Nobody knows what Hamas is doing to protect civilians because Israel won’t let them find out?

I'm pretty sure we all know that Hamas are saving their own skins. I don't believe anyone is praising Hamas or saying what a great government they are. The kids being killed, mutilated and starved, didn't vote for Hamas.

AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 15:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Auvergne63 · 30/06/2024 15:53

Scirocco · 30/06/2024 15:42

Seeing the Palestinian flags flying and hearing the support for innocent people being murdered in their thousands, it gives me hope that the world does contain people who care.

The people whose hearts are hard enough that they cannot care about innocent people being killed, because those people belong to the 'wrong' nationality or ethnicity, or worse, the people who find amusement or satisfaction in the deaths of those people... Well, there's not much point in trying to get them to care.

I agree with you but I find it incredible difficult to understand how people can be selective in their empathy.

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 15:49

Am I understanding you correctly.

Nobody knows what Hamas is doing to protect civilians because Israel won’t let them find out?

Auvergne63 · 30/06/2024 15:46

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 15:05

How about answering the question? What is Hamas doing and what have they done to minimise civilian casualties?

They know the terrain they are in and the military capabilities of their opponent, so how have they worked to protect civilians?

I guess it is difficult to defend civilians against 2,000 pounds bombs being dropped in their hundreds since this began.
Israeli military campaign in Gaza among deadliest in history, experts say | AP News
Or against white phosphorus bombs
Human Rights Watch says Israel used white phosphorus in Gaza, Lebanon | Reuters
Or against the other means of deliberately killing the population, such as starvation.
Unless Israel changes course, it could be legally culpable for mass starvation | Alex de Waal | The Guardian
Gaza is 365km 2. All the above are happening in a very small area and where 2.1 millions live.
I hope this has answered your questions. Of course, no one, unless in Gaza, can definitively say what Hamas are doing to minimise casualties. It's a shame that the Israeli government has banned any neutral observers or the international press to witness what is happening.

FILE - Palestinians look at the destruction of the Al-Gatshan family building after an Israeli strike in Nusseirat refugee camp, central Gaza Strip, on Dec. 18, 2023. After 11 weeks of war in Gaza, the Israeli military campaign against Hamas now sits a...

Israel's military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say

After 11 weeks of war in Gaza, the Israeli military campaign against Hamas now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in history, experts say.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796

Scirocco · 30/06/2024 15:42

Seeing the Palestinian flags flying and hearing the support for innocent people being murdered in their thousands, it gives me hope that the world does contain people who care.

The people whose hearts are hard enough that they cannot care about innocent people being killed, because those people belong to the 'wrong' nationality or ethnicity, or worse, the people who find amusement or satisfaction in the deaths of those people... Well, there's not much point in trying to get them to care.

cupcaske123 · 30/06/2024 15:34

keenforhelp · 30/06/2024 15:34

Yes for anti -Semitism and the Hamas terrorist attack.Shame on them for deliberately targetting a music festival.

They certainly look supportive of Palestine.

You made up the rest.

keenforhelp · 30/06/2024 15:34

cupcaske123 · 30/06/2024 15:05

Certainly looks supportive to me.

Yes for anti -Semitism and the Hamas terrorist attack.Shame on them for deliberately targetting a music festival.

AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 15:23

@Sussurations

Like what?

When the place looks like Hiroshima, when the IDF bomb refugee camps, when there are no safe zones.

AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 15:07

No need to use "". I'm unequivocal about my support for Palestinians.

It didn't start on Oct 7.

Scirocco · 30/06/2024 15:06

AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 14:39

"Targeted"

I suppose when your target is "everything", it's pretty hard to miss.

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 15:05

AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 14:36

One side is trapped like ducks in a barrel.

The other has dropped 70,000 bombs, more than was dropped on London, Dresden and Hamburg combined during WWII.

There is nowhere to run.

How about answering the question? What is Hamas doing and what have they done to minimise civilian casualties?

They know the terrain they are in and the military capabilities of their opponent, so how have they worked to protect civilians?

cupcaske123 · 30/06/2024 15:05

keenforhelp · 30/06/2024 15:01

This sums up the "support" for Palestine nicely .

Certainly looks supportive to me.

keenforhelp · 30/06/2024 15:01

This sums up the "support" for Palestine nicely .

Support for Palestine at Glastonbury
AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 14:39

"Targeted"

Support for Palestine at Glastonbury
AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 14:36

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 14:29

Are the IDF making efforts to reduce civilian casualties?

Unequivocally, yes.

Are they reaching the ‘gold standard’? No.

It is a strange war in which one side must bear responsibility for all casualties on both sides. What is Hamas doing to reduce civilian casualties? Among its own population? This is a serious question. What are they doing and what have they done?

One side is trapped like ducks in a barrel.

The other has dropped 70,000 bombs, more than was dropped on London, Dresden and Hamburg combined during WWII.

There is nowhere to run.

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 14:29

Are the IDF making efforts to reduce civilian casualties?

Unequivocally, yes.

Are they reaching the ‘gold standard’? No.

It is a strange war in which one side must bear responsibility for all casualties on both sides. What is Hamas doing to reduce civilian casualties? Among its own population? This is a serious question. What are they doing and what have they done?

AhNowTed · 30/06/2024 13:54

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 13:11

@cupcaske123 read the article I posted. There is plenty of evidence that the IDF is working to reduce civilian casualties.

Absolute clap-trap.

IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari, said forces would turn Gaza into a "city of tents" and that Israel's "emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy" in the bombardment of Gaza.

Ariel Kallner, a Knesset member for Likud, said, "Right now, one goal: Nakba. A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948"

Amichay Eliyahu, a cabinet minister, and Tally Gotliv, a Likud parliament member, have both called for Israel to use nuclear weapons on Gaza, with Gotliv stating: "It's time for a doomsday weapon. Not flattening a neighborhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza."

Galit Distel-Atbaryan, Knesset member for Likud posted on X that Israelis should focus on "Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth" and forcing the Gazans either into Egypt or to the death. It was such statements that led to Raz Segal's (Israeli historian and professor) characterization of Israel's conduct in the 2023 war in Gaza as a "textbook case of genocide", stating to Vox - “If this is not special intent to destroy, I don't know what is."

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 30/06/2024 13:50

ConnieCounter · 30/06/2024 13:27

Did you read the article yourself? It proves the opposite of the point you're trying to make.

It basically says that the IDF ticked a few boxes to make it look like they are trying to mitigate harm to civilians but their "efforts" are clearly not protecting civilians and even by using a ridiculously conservative estimate of the civilian casualties (because the IDF don't provide credible data) they're unacceptably high.

Yes the article is saying IDF is not doing enough. It makes a good argument that IDF are not doing all they could and should do to minimise civilian deaths.

So the statement IDF is trying to minimise civilian casualties is partially true in that they could do worse, but it doesn’t address the real question which is have they and are they doing enough?

Many world wide experts have said it appears that the IDF are not doing nearly enough and are doing so little, it may be criminally low.

cupcaske123 · 30/06/2024 13:28

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 30/06/2024 13:16

Individual events may be war crimes. The occurrence of war crimes doesn’t mean there have been zero efforts by IDF command and Israeli political leadership to prevent these crimes.

Gestures aren't enough.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv22g81djdyo.amp

Palestinians wait to receive food at a charity kitchen in Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip (30 May 2024)

Israel-Gaza war: 'High risk' of famine persists, UN-backed assessment says - BBC News

But experts say evidence does not indicate a famine is occurring in the north after an aid increase.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv22g81djdyo.amp

ConnieCounter · 30/06/2024 13:27

Sussurations · 30/06/2024 13:11

@cupcaske123 read the article I posted. There is plenty of evidence that the IDF is working to reduce civilian casualties.

Did you read the article yourself? It proves the opposite of the point you're trying to make.

It basically says that the IDF ticked a few boxes to make it look like they are trying to mitigate harm to civilians but their "efforts" are clearly not protecting civilians and even by using a ridiculously conservative estimate of the civilian casualties (because the IDF don't provide credible data) they're unacceptably high.