Israeli army strapped wounded Palestinian to jeep

@keenforhelp

“Indeed. I firmly believe that the world is still firmly on the side of Israel (average person on the street opinion) but a very powerful Pro-Palestinian propaganda fight is being fought on social media and perpetuated by The Guardian and the BBC for obvious reasons.”

That’s interesting. I feel the exact opposite.

My opinion is Israel has completely wasted the moral high ground it initially occupied.

And now the “person on the street” has woken up to the grotesque injustice Palestinians have been living under for 70-odd years.

Despite a powerful pro-Israeli propaganda machine, in terms of influence in the US via AIPAC, and similar monied lobby groups in the UK, backed up by an 80% right wing press and their owners, eg the Mail, Telegraph, Times etc.

Indeed. I firmly believe that the world is still firmly on the side of Israel (average person on the street opinion) but a very powerful Pro-Palestinian propaganda fight is being fought on social media and perpetuated by The Guardian and the BBC for obvious reasons.

I feel desperately sad for the innocent souls in Gaza and pray for a swift peace.

Of course wouldn't forget about those victims. But my point being that by doing what they did, hamas targeting a group of people who had had no part in what had been happening between the military, played into the hands of Israel, because the outcome was that the world were shocked and disgusted and firmly came down on the side of Israel.

He was reading a poll which said:

76% believe Netanyahu should resign immediately
65% demand elections immediately

However a quick google of Israeli polls and I'm not sure it's all that clear

Rape is a war crime, that Hamas has done during this conflict and per a UN report, so have the IDF.

You can’t distill the entirety of the Palestinian cause for statehood to one type of war crime conducted by a terrorist group of less than 0.5% of Palestinians. Yes, rape is not resistance.

Just like we cannot distill the entirety of the IDF defending Israel to that same one type of war crime either. Yes rape isn’t defending yourselves.

Rape is a war crime, but it’s not the entire war or the reason for the war.

Livelovebehappy · Today 00:23
“Had Hamas attacked military or government buildings, there might have been some understanding globally”

Hamas did attack military outposts and bases on Oct 7th as well as the festival and kibbutz homes.

“Israel's military said at 10 a.m. that Palestinian fighters had penetrated at least three military installations around the frontier - the Erez border crossing, the Zikim base and the Gaza division headquarters at Reim. It said fighting at Erez and Zikim continued.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-hamas-attack-israel-unfolded-2023-10-07/

Many Israelis lost their lives defending these military installations. One was even completely overrun and turned into a Hamas base for short time. Why would you want to forget about these victims?

Obviously that poster had not been drinking. Their post is perfectly clear, and logical if you read the whole context they described.

You just disagreed with them.

Exactly. No idea why people suggest their actions are resistance.

I meant to say, “a huge proportion of Israelis are against Netanyahu”.

@ExitChasedByCars

re:
^ScrollingLeaves · Today 00:59
Unless the 76 percent against him, whom Ami Ayalon mentioned, rebel? Do you think there is any chance?^

I was referring to what Ami Ayalon said in the interview below, posted by AhNowTed which I had just watched.

I was writing what I did by memory so may have been wrong about the exact percentage, but from what he had said, I had the idea that a huge proportion of Israelis are against him at the moment. So I was hoping they would insist on getting him out.

Even Daniel Hagari thinks what is happening now is aimless.

“AhNowTed · Yesterday 22:46
Fascinating interview with Ami Ayalon, former head of Shin Bet, the Israeli security service.”
“A rational man.”
x.com/amanpour/status/1805295431355973645?s=46&t=tm415yZZZz0e-dE263leqA

Sorry what do you mean?

Unless the 76 percent against him, whom Ami Ayalon mentioned, rebel? Do you think there is any chance?

And yet the occupation will continue and Bibi will continue to just blame Hamas and add another talking point to justify his war, Israel will attack indiscriminately and disproportionately and the cycle of violence will continue whilst his supporters will nod their heads in agreement.

That is right, but there is a wider view If you listen to that interview with Ami Ayalon (Israeli, former head of Shin Bet) posted by AhNowTed · Yesterday 22:46, even though AS himself said Oct 7 was probably the worst thing that had ever happened to Israel.

@Livelovebehappy I find your name very ironic as you’ve kept on using the word victim in quotation marks which feels really icky. Please stop trying to cast aspersions
as I was not trying to gain sympathy from anyone and it seems as though you’re intent on twisting my words. Hamas and Israel must be held to the same moral and legal standards. Israel has been continuing to commit war crimes and it’s painfully obvious October 7th will has become a talking point to justify its horrific actions. Even without Hamas, Israel will continue its actions but obviously Hamas is just a pretext by Israel and its supporters who want to justify an illegal war and use Hamas as their shield.

Had Hamas attacked military or government buildings, there might have been some understanding globally. But they decided to behave like savages, and kidnapped, raped and murdered civilians who aren’t party to the decisions made by their government. It was cowardly, and Hamas were treated like heroes by the Palestinians. In the civilised world, you are not going to get any sympathy towards Hamas for their actions on 7th October.

You implied that there were just his words and anyone who use the word victim in quotes thereby implying they’re not, this would indicate to me that you’ve made up your mind. And now you’re saying that there are embellishments which to me is not just victim blaming, it implies they’re not a victim.

I’ve watched it, thank you very much. I’d never have seen that. It is interesting to note that he thinks Netanyahu is just keeping himself in power at any cost.

If only people would listen to him. He quoted Admiral Daniel Hagari who said “To say we are going to make Hamas disappear — it’s simply throwing sand in the face of the public. Hamas is an idea, Hamas is a party. It’s rooted in the hearts of the people. Whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong.”

Ami Ayalon is a reminder of the very best of Israel imo, which is something to hold on to for hope.

I never once said that rape is the same as resistance you’ve said that @US2gether many times. Just as you somehow tried to imply that I supported Hamas/its actions nor did I once say it was just justified to take hostages. You have cast a lot of aspersions and somehow acted as though you’re merely refuting my claims, hence my first thought of you trying to derail the thread. You also seem to be adamant that it was solely October 7th that led to Gazan refugee camps. There were already Palestinian refugee camps before October 7th. Were Hamas not to exist, there would still be an occupation, West Bank settlements would still be expanding.

Many Israelis and Palestinians want peace. Refugees who’ve lost their homes do have a right to return and Palestinians do have the right to protect themselves from genocide. War crimes committed by Israel must be investigated. Using Hamas as a pretext for war should never be justified.

Hamas and Israel must be held to the same moral and legal standards. If you don’t seem to understand that, I’m not sure I can help you.

Never said an investigation wasn’t needed. What I did was challenge the long narrative a poster provided, where a lot of embellishment was added by the ‘victim’.

I'm replying to you, yet you suggest I'm derailing. Typical thread on these boards. Not allowed to reply otherwise accused of derailing. I agreed the claim needs investigating. I don't agree that rape is resistance or defending themselves when you go on that hamas are Palestinians defending themselves. I disagree with you, as I can in a democracy. I realise Palestinian people don't have that under Hamas though, sadly. An end to the war, new governance that doesn't think rape is defending themselves would help all round. A new Israeli government too. Mediation. Never rape and hostage taking. It doesn't achieve anything and its not defending themselves.

If you keep throwing things at me I tend to reply.

@US2gether Palestinians were already in refugee camps before October 7th. Where did the Palestinian refugees before October 7th come from? Did the settlements miraculously appear in Israel? You are continually trying to derail the thread. The Israeli military are going to investigate the incident mentioned in the OP. Palestinian refugees before and after October 7th have a right to return to their homes. Palestinians also have a right to defend themselves from genocide.

ETA: As you’re intent on derailing the thread, I have stated countless times that Israel needs to be held to the same moral and legal standards as Hamas and yet you keep on overlooking that and pushing your narrative when many Israelis are not happy with Bibi wanting to continue a war and October 7th didn’t start it all.

I say again that rape is not resistance, rape is not defending themselves.

I'm merely replying to your claims (which are rubbish) that this current conflict (with thousands dead) would still occur without 7th October occurring.

Now you shout 'derail' when I reply to you. 🙄

@US2gether You clearly want to derail the thread. Even if Hamas was dismantled, Israel will not stop. Israel, as an actual state, needs to be held accountable and held to same moral and legal standards as Hamas. Palestinians do have the right to defend themselves from genocide. Palestinians should have the right to return to their homes. The Israeli military is investigating the incident mentioned in the OP. War crimes have been committed by Israel and even if Hamas were to be dismantled, Israel will still continue and to imply otherwise is being disingenuous. Conscientious objectors within Israel also want peace. Instead of young Israelis are still being drafted as this is a war that Bibi will not stop on the pretext of Hamas.