War Hezbollah and Israel

According to the BBC, two children are confirmed killed and an ophthalmologist is reporting huge numbers of people blinded, with one or both eyes needing removed.

This is a terrifying event for the people of Lebanon.

It's also been reported that the devices made alert noises before exploding, thought to have been so that people would have devices near their faces and in their hands, to maximise the trauma to those areas from the blasts.

This does not bring people closer to peace, it just exacerbates terror, trauma and division.

This seems more like the desperate move of a rogue state, rather than a democratic nation.

I imagine they want to create a level of paranoia, ‘oh look what we are capable of’, which reminds me, isn’t that how terrorism works?

And speaking of terrorism, yes many people are now aware of what Israel’s idea of a ‘terrorists’ is.

I don't care where they were blown up.

The method is unacceptable and very likely a war crime. And it's incredibly concerning beyond the remit of this particular conflict. But some individuals and groups will have done well from it. Another modern method of killing tried and tested for future reference. Sadly, we all know where this sort of thing leads. The end does not justify the means.

Mods decided my post pointing out that users endorsing collective punishment was in breach of guidelines so they deleted it ... Goodnight and goodluck Mumsnet.

They werent blown up in the civilian population. They were blown up in the hands of terrorists. An 'unsavoury' business, to use your term but 'savoury' methods are hard to implement against terrorists. They are a bit beyond reasoned argument, on the whole.

And funnily enough I do know rather a fair bit about the history and context of this particular conflict. And precisely because of this knowledge, I'd rather not comment on the specifics about this conflict. I do however feel rather qualified and entitled to make a statement about the technology that seems to have been maliciously tampered with in this instance.

What an interesting comment. Please would you point out where I have commented to the geopolitical issues related to this conflict? I have said that blowing up electron devices manufactured for civilian use is a boundary that should not be crossed. This is agnostic about the conflict in question. In an age where almost everyone across the globe over the age of 10 or 11 owns and handles personal devices, this type of warfare is extremely concerning for all of us and everyone.

You are obviously exempting yourself from your assertion that most people are not educated enough to comment in a meaningful way…

I haven't really paid much attention to this awful conflict as every aspect of it is unsavoury. However, the pager story is only slowly unfolding. If it was found that a sovereign governments has turned a blind eye or even supported this act by manufacturing weapons hidden in electronic goods used by civilians this could really escalate. If this country is Hungary the EU will also be implicated. I'd think this would be a war crime.

@Scirocco how do we know the reporters know that not all the pagers were in the hands of terrorists (or pockets). They were distributed by a terrorist organisation so they could coordinate communication so why would someone with no terrorist connections or need for the communication have them? Perhaps the odd one could have been stolen, but it was a very efficient targeted attack on the communications network and terrorist operatives. Better than the firing of indiscriminate 🚀

Not to mention the political and legal issues of a state carrying out an attack like this on another country's sovereign land.

Somehow the acknowledgement that Hezbollah started a new round of (indiscriminate) attacks on civilians in Israel on 8 October got missed out here. The day after 7 October.

Did you miss the bits where it was reported the explosions happened wherever the pagers were, with no way of controlling that? Or the reports that not all pagers were in the possession of terrorists?

If you remotely detonate explosives in portable devices, you have no control over where the explosions happen or who is holding the devices. Explosions happened in public places.

This was an impressive hardware attack, but let's not pretend innocent people haven't been hurt. Not to mention the political and legal issues of a state carrying out an attack like this on another country's sovereign land.

Agreed. The situation in the Middle East is extremely complex and most people are not educated enough to comment in any meaningful way. Blowing up personal devices in the civilian population is a step too far. It's extremely concerning and inhumane. This sort of boundary should not be crossed. It seems extremely sneaky.

Not true. Terrorist operatives injured in targeted attack. HTH.

Agree. What Hezbollah are is irrelevant it is the means used to disarm them that people are concerned about. I personally feel less safe knowing devices we may carry can be infiltrated in this way. This is not good news for anybody. Yesterday it targeted terrorists but who knows where this could lead? I don't think it can be considered a legitimate form of defence for a democratic nation state.

The opposite. Hezbollah indiscriminately fire 1000s of rockets into Israeli civilian areas. This attack was highly targetted against member of a proscribed terrorist organisation. It was not by any definition collective punishment.

Oh and Hezbollah are part of a large scale drugs and money laundering network. You all know how people in the drugs trade behave, right? 'Life changing' injuries are part of their MO. My heart bleeds not one bit for them.

People seem to have lost sight of who Hezbollah are. Yes, they going about their daily business, shopping etc. But where does culpability lie if a society allows such people, armed militia, to function as part of normal civic society?They should have disarmed but refused to do so, in contravention of UN resolutions. Their stated aim is the destruction of Israel & they regularly attack Israel. They enjoy widespread support in some sections of Lebanese society. If the Lebanese people aren't going to kick them out Israel has every right to defend her civilians. They are supported by Iran & Syria. Iran & Syria FFS.

If the militia I worked for gave me a pager on which I am meant to be contactable because my phone is now a security risk. I seriously doubt I’d be swapping or selling it. It would be issued in the same way any bit of army kit is. They probably keep a record of who it was issued to and the serial number.

If you buy a batch of hardware for your army you have stock control and excess to replace lost/broken items. That just seems implausible. I mean what do you say when your boss asks you where your pager is? If you are mass buying these they are shipped to you directly as the buyer. You wouldn’t be like “oh well lets just flog these last bits then”.

These were purchased specifically for hezbollah (according to Hezbollah). If they were intercepted then Israel knew who the buyer was and where it was going. if it was random Hezbollah wouldn’t be complaining that this is a massive security breech.

The pagers were not just used by Hezbollah.

Medical Staff, Civilians etc with no connection to Hezbollah had also purchased them as a cheap way to communicate (Lebanese infrastructure is woefully lacking with regular electricity cuts and it's economy is in recession).

The devices were detonated in a wide range of Lebanese civilian spaces including, groceries, shops, busy city streets, medical facilities.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/9/17/israels-war-on-gaza-live-38-killed-as-israel-risks-becoming-pariah?update=3185182

Well, for starters, there are indications that pagers weren't all in contact with terrorists when they exploded. Pagers on civilians are also reported to have been affected. One of the complications of this sort of approach is that people sell, lend, swap, steal, redistribute, etc devices. Pagers are fairly widespread communications devices.

Also, even people involved in terrorist organisations pop to the shops and go out for activities of daily living. Or, potentially, live and socialise with family members who aren't involved in terrorism, including children. Setting off thousands of exploding devices in this manner meant people nearby would be at risk too.

These explosions have caused life-changing injuries. Think about where people hold or carry pagers. People have had their hands and fingers blown off, major abdominal and pelvic injuries, facial injuries (note that children's heads can often be around waist-height on an adult man)... This type of attack is intended to maim and spread terror on a far wider scale than it is intended to kill.

Why are operatives next to children.
They were out and about not all together carrying out an operation. Thet were in markets, walking down the street etc. Why were they targeted when they were amongst civilian population?