"If its true that more than 100 women and children died", then "Israel violated International Law" during hostage rescue, says former executive director of Human Rights Watch

As welcome as it is that, in percentage terms, less children are being killed we all know they will be more negatively impacted by the lack of humanitarian aid, malnourishment, disease and also the negative impact trauma has on a child's development and the long-term impact of trauma.

The ‘confirmation’ of numbers is for after the war, but as @Dulra has said numbers do still matter, and it would be easier to get a better idea of what is going on if independent observers and journalists were able to be in Gaza.

The secrecy stinks.

Yes, and it's entirely valid to question anything that comes from Hamas as well as Israel on this point.

Associated Press did an article that should give everyone food for thought irrespective of who you stand with in the war.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a

It underscores the difficulty in getting numbers, verifying them and putting them into specific contexts. This particular war is not the same as the Russia-Ukraine war. Actually, I don't think there's a suitable war that actually compares to this - not even past wars in the same region. As far as warfare goes, this one is revolutionising it which will be felt in many ways for decades to come similar to how WW2 changed many things.

As per AP, the numbers of women and children being killed is going down from 64% in October 2023 to 38% in March 2024. More men are being killed, BTW. One of the things this shows is the change in tactics from the Israel Defence Force.

But overall numbers in this war is really for afterwards. Even then, it'll take years to properly collate, verify and analyse. It's why I don't usually comment on these other than to point out the Gaza Health Ministry is controlled by Hamas.

Apologies for that appearing 3 times no idea how it happened I'll get 2 of them deleted

As I said before, numbers of dead and injured by status is for after a conflict free of the fog of war. Not during it.

Don't agree. Maybe you are talking about military lives there? But no way should there not be verification of how many civilians are being killed or injured until after a war. There has to be checks to make sure one side is not completely obliterating the civilians on the other (I'm speaking hypothetically here to make my point)

Israel should let independent observers in.

By the same token, neither can numbers from the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry be accepted as evidence.

Indeed, Associated Press had quite the detailed article on numbers discrepancies from Hamas recently.

As I said before, numbers of dead and injured by status is for after a conflict free of the fog of war. Not during it.

I believe the numbers should not be disputed unless there is evidence to say they are incorrect.

Humanity is doomed.

For the record, because you keep snipping at me with what you think are gotchas

I do not support Israel's actions in Gaza. The death toll is horrendous. Their leadership are batshit, terrible people. I hope they are investigated for war crimes and dealt with appropriately and the country gets new, more moderate leadership as soon as possible. Hamas are also horrendous, terrible people and I hope they fuck off out of Gaza into oblivion as soon as possible.

But despite not supporting Israel, I am not going to let my brain fall out of my head and swallow every single bit of anti-Israel messaging that is pumped onto my social media. Hence me challenging stuff like people posting Hamas propaganda uncritically.

There is a propaganda war going on and people should be sceptical of everything. Even if it comes from the former Director of Human Rights Watch. Follow the links, check what is being said.

And this propaganda was is not just about Israel, it's about the west.

We definitely shouldn’t take any information presented by either Israel or Hamas as fact.

Let the independent observers in.

Nothing that comes out of Gaza from the IDF or Hamas should be taken as fact.

Glad to hear it. I hope @HelenHen takes note.

Do you think that Hamas propaganda should be taken as fact?

Nothing that comes out of Gaza from the IDF or Hamas should be taken as fact. There is though many independent eye witness reports from international doctors and humanitarian aid workers that can be better trusted.

What unfortunately happens is that some posters would rather focus on disputing numbers

There is plenty of discussion of the awfulness of it all.

Helenhen was the one who started the discussion about whether the numbers were disputed.

And the fact that she then said the numbers should not be disputed is definitely worth discussing.

Do you think that Hamas propaganda should be taken as fact?

Anyone who can't see the devastating human affect of all this must be off their rocker. I understand that some may blame Hamas or Israel more but anyone who can see what's happening to those children and not recognise the devastation is beyond help

I agree with both the things you have said there @drowninginsick

What unfortunately happens is that some posters would rather focus on disputing numbers, which then shifts attention away from recognising that the human level of suffering is too much. Comments about the human cost of acts are often ignored, and showing empathy has you categorised as being a ‘useful idiot’ for Hamas.

Surely most people question numbers from both side as they've clearly got reasons to lie! That can't be controversial. Questioning figures isn't saying"is it enough suffering" the level of suffering is horrendous

No you misunderstand. Israel are the ones that are implicated in the deaths, they are the ones that are most impacted, from a propaganda and legal perspective, if there is a misreporting of the numbers.

If the numbers are inflated they have the most to gain from allowing independent observers in.

If Israel has something to hide then they benefit from the secrecy.