Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

"Brilliant moment pro-Israel protesters get their own back on pro-Palestine mob"

494 replies

keenforhelp · 23/05/2024 21:53

Pro-Israel supporters have taken to the streets after a cinema was vandalised with graffiti for planning to show a film about the Nova festival massacre at the hands of Hamas terrorists.

Pro-Palestine activists sprayed the Phoenix Cinema in East Finchley, London, with the message "say no to artwashing". In response, members of the Jewish community and campaigners against anti-Semitism are holding a demonstration outside the picturehouse.
Music could be heard blaring, including Elton John's I'm Still Standing, as smiling pro-Israel supporters waved the Israeli flag in a show of defiance.
A tiny band of pro-Palestine protesters are on the scene, however they are vastly outnumbered.

The volunteer, who wished to remain anonymous, told The Telegraph: “It’s just an outrage. People who are survivors of this massacre are coming here and they could have been confronted with red graffiti that honestly looked like blood.
“One of the people here knows someone who survived the massacre and she was coming tonight. Imagine the trauma if she saw this. People from the community have gone together to clean it up.
“It claimed that the film was artwashing - but it’s not. It’s footage from the festival. It shows what happened. There’s no agenda.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1902945/phoenix-cinema-finchley-israel-protest

Brilliant moment pro-Israel protesters get their own back on pro-Palestine mob

Pro-Israel protesters took to the streets to show they would not be intimidated after a cinema vowed to show a film about the Nova festival massacre.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1902945/phoenix-cinema-finchley-israel-protest

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 23:31

ScrollingLeaves · 26/05/2024 22:23

Yes, I can see that is most likely. Other sorts of alleged crimes have to be considered to be possible crimes by the police and CPS before they get to court.

Maybe someone could bring a civil case and bypass them, though I don’t know this.

No idea at all what this means. The law is applied by all courts in this country. All criminal charges considered by the CPS are considered in line with the Code for crown prosecutors.
some people appear to be very confused.

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 23:24

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 22:01

@ScrollingLeaves the IHRA definition is used throughout the government, police, etc as the definition of antisemitism. It's therefore the starting point of any legal question about what constitutes antisemitism and whether antisemitism is a factor in an alleged offence. That's reflected in the case law. It was very obviously what the initial poster was referencing when talking about recognised definitions.

This is incorrect. The approach to hate crime - there is no distinct category of anti semitic crime in English law - is as I have already set out several times above.
the original poster referenced a legal definition of anti semitism. There is no such definition in English law. None of the material you have posted establishes that there is.
i have no idea why you are on this strange mission to promote an untrue account of the state of the law. It seems an odd way to spend one’s time.

ScrollingLeaves · 26/05/2024 22:23

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 22:01

@ScrollingLeaves the IHRA definition is used throughout the government, police, etc as the definition of antisemitism. It's therefore the starting point of any legal question about what constitutes antisemitism and whether antisemitism is a factor in an alleged offence. That's reflected in the case law. It was very obviously what the initial poster was referencing when talking about recognised definitions.

Yes, I can see that is most likely. Other sorts of alleged crimes have to be considered to be possible crimes by the police and CPS before they get to court.

Maybe someone could bring a civil case and bypass them, though I don’t know this.

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 22:01

@ScrollingLeaves the IHRA definition is used throughout the government, police, etc as the definition of antisemitism. It's therefore the starting point of any legal question about what constitutes antisemitism and whether antisemitism is a factor in an alleged offence. That's reflected in the case law. It was very obviously what the initial poster was referencing when talking about recognised definitions.

ScrollingLeaves · 26/05/2024 21:37

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 21:08

The UK college of policing has no law making power. I am not sure, therefore, why you are posting screeds of its output.
do you understand how law is made in this country?

I thought it might be helpful to see what Gov.UK said.

In the absence of agreed definitions these definitions are better than nothing.
I think the police’s working definitions are based on the IHRA https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

The word anti-semitism is used often at the moment. I had only ever had a general sense of the meaning, so this seems useful to me and I thought it might be for others.

The police must use these definitions to try to foster more understanding or they would not use them I presume. They use them to guide a ‘flexibility of response’ (Gov.U.K.

You may be meaning that what is or is not anti-semitism is decided in a court case by case, I don’t know. But, if so, ordinary people like me will not see that.

What is antisemitism?

With the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, the IHRA built international consensus around an answer to the question, what does antisemitism mean?

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 21:09

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 18:15

That's good.

Ever so many thanks.

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 21:08

The UK college of policing has no law making power. I am not sure, therefore, why you are posting screeds of its output.
do you understand how law is made in this country?

ScrollingLeaves · 26/05/2024 20:14

UK College of Policing’s working definition of antisemitism.

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

“In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.”

“Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:”

“Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.”

“Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.”

“Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.”

“Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.”

“Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.”

“Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:”

“Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

“Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.”

“Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.”

“Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.”

“However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).”

“Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property – such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries – are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews.”

“Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.”

“Published 30 March 2016”

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

The Rt Hon Lord Pickles

A definition of antisemitism

The problem of antisemitism continues to be a serious one. One issue is the absence of an agreed international definition of antisemitism.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

ScrollingLeaves · 26/05/2024 20:07

Re the definition of anti -semitism - is it as defined by a victim, or as defined by law or other criteria?

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

Authored articleA definition of antisemitism

The problem of antisemitism continues to be a serious one. One issue is the absence of an agreed international definition of antisemitism.

From:
^Foreign & Commonwealth Office and The Rt Hon Lord Pickles
Published
30 March 2016^

Excerpt;

The UK Government’s overall policy is that it is up to the victim to determine whether a crime against them was motivated by any particular characteristics. This builds trust in the police among minority communities, and allows flexibility in our response.

However, for those seeking a definition of antisemitism, the UK’s College of Policing does include a working definition of antisemitism in their guidance to police forces in the UK. The full guidance is available from their website here and the definition is reproduced in full here:………

The Rt Hon Lord Pickles

A definition of antisemitism

The problem of antisemitism continues to be a serious one. One issue is the absence of an agreed international definition of antisemitism.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

CroftonWillow · 26/05/2024 20:01

Regardless of your view on the conflict, anyone trying to cancel a showing of the events of Oct 7th with hostility and intimidation has seriously lost their way.

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 18:15

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 17:52

Yes, in England. The information I directed you to previously is from the code for crown prosecutors, which reflects English law.

That's good.

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 17:52

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 17:02

In England?

Yes, in England. The information I directed you to previously is from the code for crown prosecutors, which reflects English law.

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 17:02

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 15:47

I have practiced law for 20+ years, thank you, so I am well aware of the existence of case law.
what you have posted establishes that one police force has regard to the IHRA definition. That emphatically does not mean that there is a legal definition of anti semitism. In relation to hate crime prosecutions the position is as I have already stated; it is the perception of the victim that matters, not the definition of any external body.

In England?

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 17:01

Februaryfeels · 26/05/2024 16:54

@ScrollingLeaves Thanks for taking the time to look

The fact it was so hard to spot shows how some people really try hard to find something to beat pro Israelis over the head with

Far more 'subtle' things than that video are regularly highlighted and condemned, when the people on the receiving end are not pro-ceasefire or Muslim or from certain minority groups.

First, people don't see, then people minimise, then people say there must be a valid reason, etc.

The sad truth that people lie even to themselves about sometimes, is that they don't care.

Februaryfeels · 26/05/2024 16:54

@ScrollingLeaves Thanks for taking the time to look

The fact it was so hard to spot shows how some people really try hard to find something to beat pro Israelis over the head with

ScrollingLeaves · 26/05/2024 16:44

Februaryfeels · 24/05/2024 15:16

@Mellowdramadrama The clip is only 1.02.
I don't know who I'm meant to be looking at. A time stamp would be useful

I'd love to see footage from the opposite side. What's the bloke with the red scarf doing?

I did not see the throat slitting action either until I went back to look after another poster mentioned it.

It is not easy to notice at first because the person doing it is a bit off centre, to the left. It is just a few seconds in.

I have tried to get a screen shot but only captured the gesture preceding it which is of the man pointing first to his own eyes with two fingers then directing those two fingers outwards to a person we cannot see ( on the other side of the fence).

Does this eye pointing gesture just before the ‘slitting’ one have special significance, beyond ‘I see you. I will find you and kill you?’ It looks intentional and intimidating.

We cannot tell if he is reacting to what someone on the other side has done which we cannot see, but he looks very aggressive.

I did not however manage to make out the words others have alluded to. I could see the man in a black tee shirt saying a lot and looking wild, but could not hear him.

"Brilliant moment pro-Israel protesters get their own back on pro-Palestine mob"
Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 15:47

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 11:14

https://www.met.police.uk/notices/antisemitism/antisemitism-and-how-we-define-it/#:~:text=All%20UK%20police%20forces%20use,in%20any%20shape%20or%20form.

Case law and statutory framework define the bounds of hate crime offences, including that it has been established that this includes racially and religiously motivated antisemitic offences.

The way the UK legal system has developed means many elements of law are established by case law rather than purely on the grounds of being written into a government policy or piece of legislation.

I have practiced law for 20+ years, thank you, so I am well aware of the existence of case law.
what you have posted establishes that one police force has regard to the IHRA definition. That emphatically does not mean that there is a legal definition of anti semitism. In relation to hate crime prosecutions the position is as I have already stated; it is the perception of the victim that matters, not the definition of any external body.

keenforhelp · 26/05/2024 13:26

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 08:57

You attempted to argue that you could not be anti semitic because you had not behaved in a way which the law defines as anti semitic. I asked you for the legal definition of anti semitism which, strangely, you seem to be unable to supply.
So you’re still on the hook, it seems

Yup, I agree. For sure.

OP posts:
Scirocco · 26/05/2024 11:14

https://www.met.police.uk/notices/antisemitism/antisemitism-and-how-we-define-it/#:~:text=All%20UK%20police%20forces%20use,in%20any%20shape%20or%20form.

Case law and statutory framework define the bounds of hate crime offences, including that it has been established that this includes racially and religiously motivated antisemitic offences.

The way the UK legal system has developed means many elements of law are established by case law rather than purely on the grounds of being written into a government policy or piece of legislation.

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 26/05/2024 11:11

@Mummy2024

First you said stop politicizing war.

Next that Jews don't get to define AS.

Then that AS isn't relevant because it's a political issue!?

You've repeatedly told Jews what AS is - so you clearly think that YOU get to decide what AS is.

I agree with @79Helene that you THINK you're being accused of AS for criticising Israel when you're actually not.

You haven't been misunderstood.

Claiming discrimination when Jews disagree with you on this issue is another classic AS trope & very DARVO.

You haven't been labelled - you started a disagreement on the Internet. People disagreeing with you is not intimidation.

I will take some of your assertions at face value. No one wants war. Are your family & friends on the frontline? Are your friends' kids being killed? All loss of life is tragic. We are all scared & angry.

As much as I loathe BN, I agree that: if Hamas (& all Jew haters) put down their weapons, there would be no war. If Israel put down their weapons, there would be no Israel...& no Jews & it won't stop there.

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 11:07

@Mummy2024 isn't 'on a hook' for anything. It's very clear what she was referring to. The UK police and wider government use the IHRA definition of antisemitism. So, when considering if an offence includes antisemitism, that's the legally relevant definition.

@Mummy2024n't done anything to deserve nastiness here. If people don't like that the UK government and justice system uses the IHRA definition, then I would suggest taking it up with them.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/05/2024 09:35

Israeli soldiers are doing vastly more for the people in Gaza by getting rid of Hamas, than you are by Jew baiting on Mumsnet.

I just want to note that I find this statement reprehensible.

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 08:57

Mummy2024 · 26/05/2024 02:17

Places me In the clear of what? Are you insinuating I have broken the law? Or that I am being antisemitic by wanting the government of Israel to change tactics?I've made abundantly clear I am in support of Israels right to defend itself. I have also made absolutely clear that Jewish people are no more responsible for what is happening in this war than I am (I used those exact words), ive also said hamas are terrorists and should be prosecuted, the only thing that i have been critical of is the government of Israels approach in palastine, and i would be critical of any government of any country that is taking the action that they are, that is not antisemitic.Let me tell you that I am discriminated against on a regular basis, I mean look at what you are doing now, trying to intimidate me because i am against the level of death we are seeing in palastine. If I am to be prosecuted for being a humane person, who is absolutely heart broken by the children in that country being killed then so be it, let them throw the book at me, even if I've not said 1 single bad thing about Jewish people at all.

You attempted to argue that you could not be anti semitic because you had not behaved in a way which the law defines as anti semitic. I asked you for the legal definition of anti semitism which, strangely, you seem to be unable to supply.
So you’re still on the hook, it seems

Marjoriefrobisher · 26/05/2024 08:54

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 00:43

Police use the IHRA definition when identifying cases needing flagged in relation to it. What you've linked to is a guide to what happens next, which is a reasonably robust assessment process. The IHRA doesn't make any law; their definition was adopted by the UK government in December 2016.

so I wonder what the point of citing the IHRA definition in answer to the question « where is anti Semitism defined in law » was, then. As established, the law does not look at the IHRA definition. It looks at the perception of the victim.

Mummy2024 · 26/05/2024 03:21

I'm done on answering anyone who wishes to wrongly label me. If you quote me or tag me, don't be surprised if you don't get a reply. I've said all I'm going to say on the subject.

Swipe left for the next trending thread