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Conflict in the Middle East

New Hamas video of hostages

513 replies

Muthaofcats · 22/05/2024 17:00

The new Hamas video released today of the female hostages selected as the ones they planned to get pregnant was so sickening and I wish I hadn’t seen it.

however, I am also wondering WHY it has not been more widely picked up and broadcast? I don’t understand the silence from the bleeding left; why don’t they see stuff like this and not just feel desperate and sick about those poor poor girls and their families who must be beyond devastated.

Watching the men in those videos helps to counter balance the idea of Israel as the aggressor. I wish more would see it and reflect or even just place those women of equal value to those in Gaza.

How is the world so perverse right now that this warrants a shrug from so many? Or worse, is viewed as justified !?

OP posts:
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Scirocco · 23/05/2024 10:59

ChickyBricky · 23/05/2024 10:47

Genuine question, is "Islamofascism" necessarily a pejorative term? To me, it conveys the kind of authoritarian regime characterised by e.g. Ayatollah Khomeini, and seemed to be a useful word for describing what I was trying to express. What does it mean to you?

Yes. It's a deeply offensive term used to spread hatred and fear and to contribute to the way Muslims in the UK and around the world have prejudice and violence against us dismissed, minimised, justified and supported. What its use usually means for me is that I'm not safe to interact with the person using it, as those people often follow it up with threats or attempts at violence against me or others like me. So I have little desire to interact with people who use language like that. It isn't used the way you'd like to use it, and it's not a word that you can 'reclaim' or defend without its use placing you in the company of people who would see me, and people like me, ostracised, incarcerated, deported or dead. It's not a 'discuss and debate' kind of word, it's more a 'report and hope you never have to interact with that poster again' kind of word.

ChickyBricky · 23/05/2024 10:47

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 10:30

Presumably your post was deleted because it used language which meets the threshold of hate speech within the Talk Guidelines. That's hardly evidence of excessive censorship - the threshold is quite high when it comes to Islamophobic terms.

Genuine question, is "Islamofascism" necessarily a pejorative term? To me, it conveys the kind of authoritarian regime characterised by e.g. Ayatollah Khomeini, and seemed to be a useful word for describing what I was trying to express. What does it mean to you?

ChickyBricky · 23/05/2024 10:42

ScrollingLeaves · 23/05/2024 10:20

Thank you for explaining clearly what you were hoping to convey.

What I was trying to convey is the idea that in the West, we think we know all about fascism: it looks like Hitler, or Netanyahu (both white-looking men in suits); it is supported by corporate greed, which makes us automatically think of the US; these are our default prejudices. The Islamic version embodied by Hamas does not compute with our patronising tendency to see "brown" people as having no wealth, agency, or strategic vision.*

I think this can be true.

Also, there can be a certain fascism where you would not expect it in aspects of liberal left wing politics in the U.K. around anything thought of as ‘correct’ thinking.

Yes, we musn't forget that "Nazi" once meant national socialist party!

ScrollingLeaves · 23/05/2024 10:36

This is an BBC article describing the position of these very young female border guards whose job it was to spot anything suspicious hand how they came under attack on Oct 7 while carrying out their work.

For months they had known some sort of attack was being planned but were ignored and left undefended by their own superiors.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67958260

Female soldiers who guarded Israel's border

They were Israel's 'eyes on the border' - but their Hamas warnings went unheard

A unit of young female soldiers warned of a big attack. They were among the first Hamas killed on 7 October.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67958260

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 10:32

@ChickyBricky thank you for apologising for using that phrase.

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 10:30

ChickyBricky · 23/05/2024 07:47

I wasn't being at all argumentative, and was unaware that I was using offensive language. I'd have appreciated someone challenging my well-intentioned post and giving me a chance to explain what I meant by it.

If you re-read the original post, you will see that this thread is not just a place to express dismay at the plight of these captives. The conversation we were trying to have was about censorship and bias, particularly the Left's apparent blindness to the threat faced by Israel.

My comment was very much on topic, and the fact that it was deleted kind of proves the point made by the OP.

Presumably "Islamofascism" is the word that caused offence. I looked it up, and to my dismay found on Wiki that it does have a problematic history, so I am sincerely sorry to have upset anyone.

What I was trying to convey is the idea that in the West, we think we know all about fascism: it looks like Hitler, or Netanyahu (both white-looking men in suits); it is supported by corporate greed, which makes us automatically think of the US; these are our default prejudices. The Islamic version embodied by Hamas does not compute with our patronising tendency to see "brown" people* as having no wealth, agency, or strategic vision.

*a description borrowed from numerous MN posts, not my own perception, just to make that clear...

Presumably your post was deleted because it used language which meets the threshold of hate speech within the Talk Guidelines. That's hardly evidence of excessive censorship - the threshold is quite high when it comes to Islamophobic terms.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/05/2024 10:20

ChickyBricky · 23/05/2024 07:47

I wasn't being at all argumentative, and was unaware that I was using offensive language. I'd have appreciated someone challenging my well-intentioned post and giving me a chance to explain what I meant by it.

If you re-read the original post, you will see that this thread is not just a place to express dismay at the plight of these captives. The conversation we were trying to have was about censorship and bias, particularly the Left's apparent blindness to the threat faced by Israel.

My comment was very much on topic, and the fact that it was deleted kind of proves the point made by the OP.

Presumably "Islamofascism" is the word that caused offence. I looked it up, and to my dismay found on Wiki that it does have a problematic history, so I am sincerely sorry to have upset anyone.

What I was trying to convey is the idea that in the West, we think we know all about fascism: it looks like Hitler, or Netanyahu (both white-looking men in suits); it is supported by corporate greed, which makes us automatically think of the US; these are our default prejudices. The Islamic version embodied by Hamas does not compute with our patronising tendency to see "brown" people* as having no wealth, agency, or strategic vision.

*a description borrowed from numerous MN posts, not my own perception, just to make that clear...

Thank you for explaining clearly what you were hoping to convey.

What I was trying to convey is the idea that in the West, we think we know all about fascism: it looks like Hitler, or Netanyahu (both white-looking men in suits); it is supported by corporate greed, which makes us automatically think of the US; these are our default prejudices. The Islamic version embodied by Hamas does not compute with our patronising tendency to see "brown" people as having no wealth, agency, or strategic vision.*

I think this can be true.

Also, there can be a certain fascism where you would not expect it in aspects of liberal left wing politics in the U.K. around anything thought of as ‘correct’ thinking.

Muthaofcats · 23/05/2024 09:48

blackcherryconserve · 22/05/2024 23:49

I'm so sorry you are suffering so badly. I am 76 and also the daughter of a Jewish refugee and until 7 October had never faced Jew hatred at all. I had many non Jewish friends but now I feel abandoned by people I thought I knew well.
Both DDs are frightened both for themselves and the reaction of people who realise they are Jewish. They no longer wear their Star of David necklaces.
But what is worse for me is that they 'want to keep their children safe' so that nobody at school knows they are Jewish! My newest grandchild due in the summer will very likely not be given a Biblical or known Jewish name because of this fear, I'd go so far to say paranoia, about how Jews are now perceived by non Jewish Brits.

I’m so sorry too. It shows Hamas are achieving their objective if Jews feel too frightened to wear their Star of David or have Jewish names. How are we back here? I’m so sorry that your mother survived just so her great grandchildren could go through the same persecution all over again. Have we learned nothing.

OP posts:
Muthaofcats · 23/05/2024 09:45

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 23/05/2024 08:24

The poor girls.

Bloodied, terrified, beaten by big men with guns.

I saw one video of the group of girls all hiding in a bomb shelter on the phone to their mothers. Trying to work out what to do. The clip ends as a Hamas man with a gun enters. All of the group were raped, killed or taken hostage. Seeing how young they are and how frightened and knowing their ultimate fate is just harrowing.

OP posts:
0palfruitsalad74 · 23/05/2024 09:31

It does seem to have been picked up now. Yesterday I could only see it on the Daily Mail (as shared by someone on the FWR board).

EllaDisenchanted · 23/05/2024 09:26

AdamRyan · 23/05/2024 09:16

At the time I posted, I couldn't see it there. Presumably it has updated now
¯(ツ)/¯

Pinkjarblujar · 23/05/2024 09:25

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 23/05/2024 07:44

Disgraceful post! Why don’t the Ukrainians give the land back to Russia too right? Oh wait that’s different- why?! Can’t think why.

Would you like us to start offering our homes to large numbers of Gazan refugees to make things more even?

Pinkjarblujar · 23/05/2024 09:20

I have seen it on multiple sites. It's horrific. I don't know why you feel it isn't being covered.

In terms of atrocities it is obscene. However it's not genocide so I wouldn't expect it to be reported on in the same way as the Gazan deaths which are so multitudinous that their faces and names could never be featured.

AdamRyan · 23/05/2024 09:16

twoforj0y · 23/05/2024 07:59

I read the news online and haven't seen this? I just checked my sky news app and the Israel/hamas war tab hasn't updated since the news of Ireland recognising Palestine.

Obv., I'll go looking now, but to the OP, yes it is not making news ... thanks for highlighting

Front page of BBC atm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg33j53qe31o

Naama Levy (family handout)

Israeli hostage's family hopes video is reminder of need for deal

New harrowing footage shows the moment Naama Levy and other women were seized by Hamas gunmen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg33j53qe31o

SharonEllis · 23/05/2024 08:55

Humdingerydoo · 23/05/2024 08:28

Probably has something to do with Hamas not even bothering to tell anyone who they had kidnapped. Hard to negotiate when you don't even know what you're negotiating for.

Also, remember the time Israel negotiated with terrorists and had to return 1027 prisoners, a lot of them terrorists, in order to get one soldier back after? One of the released terrorists was Sinwar, who then went on to plan October 7th. Which just goes to show what happens when you negotiate with terrorists.

But don't worry, your one-sided blame on Israel has been noted. Most people would probably blame the kidnappers and murderers for kidnapping and murdering, but I suppose it's different when it comes to Israel.

Also, I think the attack was so heinous and existential that a strong response was needed alongside any negotiating for the hostages. And, as far as how, when etc negotiations were going on literally noone on this board has any idea. Israel regularly has no good options when faced with existential threat only a series of least worst.

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 08:39

The Guardian has at least mentioned it now, in the live blog page. Disappointingly, that's all there seems to be, so far, which is not good enough.

Humdingerydoo · 23/05/2024 08:28

Tel12 · 23/05/2024 07:49

I don't know why the Israeli government didn't negotiate for the release these poor hostages right from the beginning.

Probably has something to do with Hamas not even bothering to tell anyone who they had kidnapped. Hard to negotiate when you don't even know what you're negotiating for.

Also, remember the time Israel negotiated with terrorists and had to return 1027 prisoners, a lot of them terrorists, in order to get one soldier back after? One of the released terrorists was Sinwar, who then went on to plan October 7th. Which just goes to show what happens when you negotiate with terrorists.

But don't worry, your one-sided blame on Israel has been noted. Most people would probably blame the kidnappers and murderers for kidnapping and murdering, but I suppose it's different when it comes to Israel.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 23/05/2024 08:24

The poor girls.

Bloodied, terrified, beaten by big men with guns.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 23/05/2024 08:22

Tel12 · 23/05/2024 07:49

I don't know why the Israeli government didn't negotiate for the release these poor hostages right from the beginning.

Negotiation with terrorists bring more terrorism and more hostage taking.

A full on attack breeds more terrorism.

There is no winning strategy here. It's all very bleak.

Therapy4all · 23/05/2024 08:20

Edited as others have mentioned the news outlets who have reported on this.

EllaDisenchanted · 23/05/2024 08:17

EllaDisenchanted · 23/05/2024 08:17

The BBC one I had to hunt. It was on the list of updates, but not on the main part of the Middle East page, I had to go looking for it.

EllaDisenchanted · 23/05/2024 08:17

twoforj0y · 23/05/2024 07:59

I read the news online and haven't seen this? I just checked my sky news app and the Israel/hamas war tab hasn't updated since the news of Ireland recognising Palestine.

Obv., I'll go looking now, but to the OP, yes it is not making news ... thanks for highlighting

Found this on the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg33j53qe31o.
This was the daily mail https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13447359/Hamas-terrorists-taunt-young-Israeli-women-threat-rape-footage.html
Nothing on Sky that I can see
Yes on the daily telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/22/israeli-parents-release-chilling-video-of-hostage-daughters/
Nothing on the Guardian that I can see either

Horrifying new footage shows Hamas kidnappers threatening women

WARNING: Graphic content: These are the horrifying first moments in captivity for the five youngest women held in Gaza by sick Hamas fanatics since October 7.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13447359/Hamas-terrorists-taunt-young-Israeli-women-threat-rape-footage.html

twoforj0y · 23/05/2024 07:59

I read the news online and haven't seen this? I just checked my sky news app and the Israel/hamas war tab hasn't updated since the news of Ireland recognising Palestine.

Obv., I'll go looking now, but to the OP, yes it is not making news ... thanks for highlighting

ChickyBricky · 23/05/2024 07:51

lotus786 · 22/05/2024 22:54

What about the thousands of videos coming out of Gaza EVERY SINGLE DAY? What about the 15,000 children who have been killed let alone the orphans, the wounded, and now the starvation and diseases that are killing them. What about their homes being bombed, while whole bloodlines are being wiped out. What about all the brave medics who have been slaughtered? The journalists who have lost their lives? First they are sent out of the north to the south to live in tents and now they are bombing the south, there is nowhere to go?? What about the little girl Hind who was in a car with her uncle, aunt and young cousins and the Israeli army shot at them killing everyone but little Hind who managed to get through to emergency services on a telephone whilst sat in the car with her dead family, She was begging to be rescued. Then the Red Crescent got the go ahead from the army to send an ambulance in to rescue her and what did the Israeli's do? They bombed the ambulance killing two medics and shot Hind who was only 6 years old. This started 76 years ago, not in October. The people of Palestine have been living in an open aired prison with Israel giving them no rights or chance of a future.tens of thousands of Palestinian people including children and disabled have been locked up and put into prisons with no charges brought against them and no trial but yet we call them 'prisoners' when they are really 'hostages'. If the Palestinian people had been treated as equals and humans and had rights then Hamas would not have become what it is. The Israeli government are the ones to blame for Hamas because they are the only other option for the people to support to try to gain freedom and let's not forget there is no Hamas in the West Bank and yesterday a teacher, a doctor and a young student were murdered in the West Bank, this is a genocide happening before our very eyes and all people need to do is look for the information out there on the internet and they will see it's all there.

It's all horrible, of course it is. But this is not really the place to reiterate all that. You'll find plenty of other threads to express those views.

As someone who is (despite my best efforts) fairly clumsy on social media, I can recommend you have a read of this! 😊

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Whataboutism - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism