New Hamas video of hostages

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13451089/The-father-son-Hamas-rapists-Terrorists-going-house-house-carrying-sex-attacks-murder-One-screamed-cried-father-raped-did-cousin-did-father-killed-her.html

I can honestly say as someone on the left, with a wide circle of left friends & family & having also mixed in very right wing circles the left does have a particularly didactic character to its groupthink. This is not an earthshatteringly original thought. I'm just surprised anyone is pushing back on it. The whole debate around antisemitism brought this into sharp focus because left wing people are 'antiracist' & live out their 'morality' in a particular way so therefore could not conceive of their own racism & thought racists were by definition right wing people. 'All humans do groupthink' is just another 'all lives matter'. You need to be able to understand and critically evaluate the differences or you cant solve the problems.

I asked if you were sure when you said this was not what the thread was about not about your sympathy....no idea why my posts have gone...nothing offensive or against the rules

It's astonishing that this Hamas film has not been featured much in the media. Just tells me all I need to know about how slanted this whole Middle East coverage is these days.

Ah yes, I'm not above a bit of wild stereotyping 😜
...but I didn't just make it up, these are impressions gained over a long period of time.

Take no notice of me, though. I did warn you I live in my own bubble!!! 😁

Nothing like a bit of wild stereotyping!
All humans do groupthink - its human nature. You are demonstrating your own "ingroup/outgroup" by stereotyping "the left".

There is certainly a difference between personality and politics, but one easily segues into the other. We're drawn to ideologies that reflect our essential nature.

In my experience, the "lefties" tend to work in packs, adopting Groupthink, whereas the "righties" are more idiosyncratic, often mavericks (think along the lines of someone like Jordan Peterson).

The trouble with the Groupthink packs is that they put others under enormous pressure to conform to their belief system, whereas the oddball mavericks are quite used to no one agreeing with them and almost take pride in it, presenting their ideas more as a form of self-expression.

These are obviously wild generalisations, but that's my overall impression from 20+ years in the field.

I normally take no interest whatsoever in politics and would not describe myself as left, right or centre. None of it works. "Bubble of my own" is about right. I've only been drawn into these discussions because I hate seeing Jewish people being bullied.

(And no, I have no religion either; I suppose I was brought up Welsh Chapel, but consider religion a complete waste of time – like politics, it's just bullshit that's responsible for too much human suffering.)

Thank you.
I will Google them all.

I think there are just a lot of humans with "a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control". I've worked with plenty of people like that from many backgrounds and political persuasions.
I don't think people who behave like that as individuals are fascists. Fascists to me are people who think the country/ leader/politicians should be run like that.

And your characterisation of many people on the left is entirely accurate, particularly around antisemitism as well as other issues. I say that as someone firmly on the left!

They probably wouldn't describe themselves that way, which makes it all the more scary. Academic publishing.

What line of work are you in to deal with the "left-left-left"? We don't get that many in the UK

You did, although kind of hard to see now that your posts have gone AWOL. You asked if I had sympathy for Palestinain prisoners (despite it having fuck all to do with the thread), I said yes, you asked if I was sure, I said yes and asked if you believed me, you said no. Hence calling me a liar.

I don't speak Arabic, but the translation of one of the Hamas terrorists words is reported to be “These are the girls that can get pregnant”

Naama Levy, 19, her ankles were sliced to stop her running. There is blood on the seat of her trousers. She says to the terrorists (in English) "I have friends in Palestine". Likely true, as she was involved in the Hands of Peace program that works to build bridges, and break down hate between Israelis and Palestinians.

Agam Berger, 19, wearing her pyjamas. Just moments before, she managed to call her father, Shlomi, and told him there was gunfire all around her

Liri Albag, 19. From other sources, she is constantly being moved between homes of Hamas families forced to work as a servant, cleaning and cooking and taking care of their children. Traces of Liri’s blood were discovered in one of these homes, inside of a child’s bedroom.

Karina Ariev, 19, seen being taken captive in two separate videos posted by Hamas bloodied and beaten.

Daniella Gilboa, 19, a singer and songwriter. Daniella has been singing and playing piano since childhood, dreaming of becoming a professional musician.

Yes I know the campaign you are talking about with Iranian prisoners, and have shared their stories before. It has value; from Iranian people I follow, they say that when enough people raise awareness, it can actually have an affect (in some cases, sadly not all), as the Iranian government do not want another uprising.

Errrrmmmmmm well he wasn't just let out with a pat on the back and a bag of sweets. Hopefully you're aware of what the extortionate "exchange rate" was, and what some of the 1,027 released Palestinians went on to achieve.

Are you referring to me? I didn't call you a liar...or question your sympathy for Palestine...I did question your understanding of the original post though....

Well, I'm not a right-wing nut job... it's just an observation from my line of work, that those on the left-left-left are definitely fascist in the sense of "a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control." They're like the bloody Stasi 😁 and I think their rigid views leave them rather vulnerable to being manipulated into antisemitism, especially if it's fashionable.

ScrollingLeaves

The definition of Zionism is pretty simple: it was a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl.

I am Jewish (although I do not practice the religion) and a Zionist. DDs are the same except that one is not a Zionist and the other is.

The reason I am a Zionist is because I believe that Jews need their homeland in which they can be free from anti semitism. This is how Herzl began his campaign for a Jewish homeland during the pogroms that took place in Eastern Europe in the late 19th century.

My belief stems mainly from the fact that my mother's family lived in Germany during the first half of the 20th century. My uncle escaped from Dachau (as far as I'm aware, the first German concentration camp where Jews and Communists were imprisoned) in 1936 and went to South America. My mother arrived here aged 19 while my grandmother, we later discovered died ina concentration camp alongside most of her extended family.

Therefore the only place Jews can be safe (the irony doesn't escape me!) is in Israel. The rampant antisemitism that has taken over many countries in which Jews have previously assimilated well and felt safe is today's driver in the belief that is Zionism. Universities, schools and workplaces are no longer welcoming to Jewish people who are afraid to acknowledge their Jewishness. This is how Nazism grew in Germany 100 years ago and partly why the Jewish State was founded in 1948.

There will be plenty on MN who will read this and say 'whatabout ...' but if you want to know why a Jewish homeland is imperative to most Jewish people (religious or otherwise) this is my pennyworth FWIW.

I agree it’s all a tragedy for both sides.

Oh Gilad Shalit? The IDF soldier who was released alive after negotations?

I'm sure you're right...it's much better to kill, bomb and commit war crimes instead of trying to protect their citizens.

And make no mistake the IDF can be just as twisted and sadistic as Hamas...

The thread was hardly 'bombarded' with the term PR stunt, it was said once.....calm down

It seems that, if these female soldiers had been listened to, Oct 7th attacks might have been prevented. I feel this should make them a higher priority in the Israeli government's eyes - in that they tried to prevent something terrible, and to protect their country. Or perhaps I've misunderstood something.

I can understand their desperation...I suppose they have to try everyrhing...and here's hoping it works for them...however I am extremely cynical of the Israeli government which makes me question everything

Yes of course they would (and should) but the video.being released right now is just not going to help...too many deaths in Gaza has overshadowed the hostages...which is a tragedy for both sides

I think Israel learned their lesson from Gilad Shalit and know that, sadly, negotiating with terrorists always backfires badly.

I believe they must have had to act without regard for the hostages, otherwise Hamas would have them over a barrel.

Behind the scenes, I'd imagine they have seen footage that they are not sharing with anyone. Given how sadistic Hamas are, and how they enjoy causing maximum distress to the extended family and friends of their victims, it would be very surprising if they hadn't milked the situation for every drop of pain they could cause. I'm sure there have been some very difficult decisions to be made in the interests of protecting Israel in general rather than the unfortunate captives.

The video dates from 7 October; one way or another, I'd be surprised if they are still alive. If they are, their lives will never be the same again. I wish I could find the words to express how sorry I am for what they must have endured.

That this thread is still bombarded with people sneering at Israel's "PR stunts" etc is truly sickening and proves the point OP made in her original post, and that we have been trying to discuss since.

To ask, it's a video of female hostages, and their captors are saying they plan to rape them and make them pregnant?

Kendodd they are very young, female. conscripted soldiers, who had barely left school.

They were ‘spotters’ on the border. They did plenty of ‘spotting’ that an attack was afoot but were not taken seriously.

Some were killed by Hamas on Oct 7, some escaped, some were captured.

The video is body cam footage of Hamas terrorists tying up the hands of those they’d captured and making them sit by a wall; then taking them and loading them into a truck. At one point you hear a Hamas fighter say this is one for ‘impregnating’. There is another who says to a girl ‘You are so beautiful’ Another who says ‘Be quiet’. These are translations from Arabic.

One girl also says she has friends in Gaza. Another answers she is from TelAviv when asked where she is from. Maybe they said this in English.

Some of these little school girl soldiers we see in the video are bloody from wounds from the original attack presumably. One has to hobble on one leg while being supported by Hamas fighters into the truck. They are not wearing army fatigues as some are still in their pyjamas.

They had been left alone at the border.