New Hamas video of hostages

If Hamas or Iran or any other nation made an attempt to invade Israel and there was a meaningful and existential risk to its existence I would expect the UK to step in and help including sending boots on the ground. What happened in October shows that Hamas does not currently have the military capability to do this.

I support fully Israels right to self defence and it's original efforts to remove hamas from power was acceptable and it's sovereign right. The way it has gone about this killing and injuring far to many civilian palastinians. Cutting off food and supplies is not acceptable and everytime I see the US or the UK go on tv saying ohh yes it's terrible unacceptable but not a war crime. I feel absolute disgust inside, it's absolute double standards.

The level of death and destruction in palastine will likely have only increased support from palastinians for military action and hatred for the people of Israel, it's completely unfair to people of both nations and it will prolong this conflict for another 70 years. Adherence to international law was imperative and should be the back bone to any free democratic country. I've realised in recent times this is sadly not the case. Both nations need an appetite for true and long lasting peace. This hatred and battle for land is not worth the lives of both people's.

I promise you for me that is not the case. I do not hate Jewish people and I am not at all taking sides. It's an absolute disgrace what was done in October. It's criminal it's inhumane and should be punished to the full extent of the law but at the same time most palastinians are completely innocent and do not deserve what is happening to them right now.

This has gone on for 70 years isn't it about time peace was demanded for the sake of all involved?

What most people want is a stop to the violence and a peaceful settlement reached. Would this not be better than 70 more years of conflict?

I understand what you mean about conflicts elsewhere aswell such as the Iraq war but I think we as a population have learned from that conflict. We were lied to and mislead into supporting a war that should never have happened. It's opened our eyes to the reality that Infact nothing is as it seems or what we are lead to believe. We don't want more death. In the war in Ukraine we were able to help, we took them in many people into their own homes. We can do nothing to help innocent palastinians and we see our government doing the bare minimum and doing next to nothing to bring an end to their suffering. We see them on tv saying ohh it's tragic but we will still send more weapons.

Israel has a right to exist and we should and will support Israel if that ever becomes at risk but most of us also want palastine to have a state.

We don't have to chose sides to want peace and adherence to international laws on both sides. We are acutely aware that tomorrow this could be us or our children, would we want to be thought of as an unfortunate consequence or acceptable sacrifice to achieve war aims? We wouldn't we are putting ourselves in their shoes because we are all aware that we are edging ever closer to being in the situation that the palastinians are currently in.

Innocent lives are not collateral damage to achieve an aim. If they were any country at war could claim this, if this were the case and then where would we be?

I can't believe that some people believe that starving a population and killing thousands upon thousands in 6 month is justified to achieve an aim.
If this kind of behaviour is allowed what happens when it is us attacked? Should they be allowed to slaughter Innocent people ie us to win?

I would...

There was a very interesting episode of the Rest is Politics on this, with a human rights lawyer. The answer was something along the lines of when these things are over there are a lot of interventions both domestically and internationally to make sure countries are rebuilt. They gave the example of Serbia/ Bosnia where whilst the genocide is still recent, raw and within living memory, there is effort to educate and move forward in peace. In order to do this though there has to be some recognition of wrongdoing and some sort of apology. That is not likely between Israel and Hamas.

How would you now feel if the response to this horrific thing, from global leaders and many many cognitively dissonant people, was:

"Well, awful as this is, it's a war and there will be casualties. It's the nature of war."

I believe a free Palestine, protected from occupation and violence, and given international recognition and security, can heal and find a way to have peace, even with its former occupier and oppressor.

Are we talking about a Palestine still under occupation with their borders controlled and their homes being stolen or are we talking about a Palestine that is free from occupation and control? There is a huge difference there. If this ends and the status quo remains of Palestine being occupied and the people being left stateless then it really isn't like Germany or Japan is it?

Indeed.

Germany, Japan did it. Why do we assume Palestinian people are incapable of wanting peace in the future and will become more terrorists. That this breeds terrorists is said by supporters of Palestine too. They even don't hold high expectations of them wanting peace. Its odd

Some really balanced and honest responses here. Some of these posts have made me reflect on my own subconscious prejudices and judgements.

To my shame, I have lower expectations of Palestinians.

I think we see this whenever people state that the current Gaza conflict will breed another generation of hate (although I'm not denying that it might). It overlooks that many nations have been on the receiving end of a huge death toll and mass infrastructure destruction and have peacefully rebuilt - Germany and Japan for instance. The Palestinians get painted as more vengeful with that statement.
That being said, there were obviously huge international efforts post second world war to create peace and rebuild and I'd like to see the same here.

To my shame, I have lower expectations of Palestinians. Likewise waring parties in Africa or other developing nations. Why? I don't know. They're not savages, they shouldn't be treated as such

I really appreciate you saying this. It's like I said on p3, copied here in case you were not hanging onto my every word 🤪
What I was trying to convey is the idea that in the West, we think we know all about fascism: it looks like Hitler, or Netanyahu (both white-looking men in suits); it is supported by corporate greed, which makes us automatically think of the US; these are our default prejudices. The Islamic version embodied by Hamas does not compute with our patronising tendency to see "brown" people as having no wealth, agency, or strategic vision.

The reason I've got so carried away defending Israel is that I DO think double standards are applied, not helped of course by Netanyahu being an arsehole. I think we are very self-critical in the West, and so carry that cynicism over into anything that appears to be influenced by Western capitalism. My DH grew up under Soviet rule and has a very different set of things he's wary of.

Unfortunately, it looks as though any attempt to eliminate Hamas is going to be more like chemotherapy than keyhole surgery, given their level of infiltration and control. It would be almost as difficult if they didn't have the tunnel network, if they didn't deliberately set up base in sensitive targets. In these circumstances, I feel frustrated by the insistence on blaming Israel for everything.

And of course nothing answers the problem of what happens to all the malicious intent if and when this conflict ever "resolves." Energy never dies, it just changes form. People say that to cheer themselves up about dying, but it's just as true of evil.

It's beyond depressing to see just how much malicious intent there is, and the forms it takes. I realise how naive I was before 7 October, about so many things, but particularly our capacity for cruelty and stupidity. Maybe this is the way the world ends for humanity, and if so good fucking riddance to be honest 🤦🏻‍♀️

And yes.... meanwhile innocent people on all sides are being killed, bombed, raped, murdered. And further hatred is being fostered and nurtured and I feel so helpless and that there is no true hope for the world.

It's all unspeakable.

That's a very interesting post @Kendodd . I have long said that Israel is being held to higher standards than Hamas and it's because people don't even hold a subconscious expectation that Hamas will behave in any other way but with barbaric savagery. And that they don't even get that this is racist,

*edited because my point got even more confused

And I've really examined my heart on this. I've come to the conclusion that there is an element of racism, but it's not antisemitism, it's islamphobia. I expect very high standards from Israel with regard human rights, every bit as high as from my own country, no excuses. Israel is failing in this and deserves every bit of criticism it gets from me imo, exactly as the UK would.

To my shame, I have lower expectations of Palestinians. Likewise waring parties in Africa or other developing nations. Why? I don't know. They're not savages, they shouldn't be treated as such, I should have every bit as high expectations of them as well, they are perfectly capable of high regard for human rights and should get no free pass, as if they can't help themselves. I've described this as expecting the same regard from human life from a bunch of criminals (Hamas) as you would from the police (Israeli government). Although I have always made a distinction between Hamas, and the Palestinian people and the Israeli government and the Israeli people.

Israeli can't bomb it way out of this and I can understand why support for Hamas in Gaza would actually be growing not reducing as a result. I don't pretend there is any logic to this, human beings are driven by emotions not logic. If you're in Gaza and see your children killed or community destroyed, your not going to step back and see the bigger picture, you're just going to want revenge, you're not going to care what happens to you, you've lost everything already. You then have Hamas promising you revenge and drumming up more and more hate.

Meanwhile, those poor young women (and many more) who have done nothing to cause this are dead or are held in torture and thousands of children are dead. Its truly awful.

@Kendodd I think I did that (in a previous incarnation).
Sorry! 💐🌸💮🌼🌺🪻🌷

Completely agree.
None of this should be happening. There is very much a feeling of 'if you have sympathy for them, you hate me' running through all these threads. I think it's awful what Hamas have done, I also think it's awful what Israel have done. I've been called antisemitic multiple times on these threads for this opinion.

I should have added why is there little sympathy for people from both Israel and Palestine. Some are only sympathetic to Palestinian people eg those women have no sympathy because they were Israeli soldiers. Extremely young, conscripted and taken hostage on 7th October so not responsible for the conflict at all. Just young women who don't deserve yo be raped, killed or kept hostage.

This.

Some only have sympathy for Palestinian people. Nothing for Israeli people at all regardless of their situation.

Secondly and separately, the hatred of the west as colonisers forgetting that Australian people are mainly descendents of colonisers as are Americans. Beat Israel as a way to hit the west. Forgetting that Judea and Jewish people were indigenous and only considering those that arrived after WW2 from elsewhere (including from other middle East countries where they were unsafe).

Thirdly, forgetting that Jordan and Egypt were occupiers of the area prior.

It feels that most of this stems from hating Jewish people. Especially when other conflicts, problems in the world are largely ignored.

Exactly this. Imagine this happening where terrorists do the same thing in - say- Glastonbury. Para-sail in and murder, rape and kidnap.

I have heard and read so many times on MN and elsewhere that they deserved what happened to them because Israel should not exist. There was a grimly hilarious clip shown of young white Australians university students (I am Australian for context) saying that they deserved it because they were occupiers and colonisers........ um........ maybe they forgot about Indigenous Australians. Bet they'd change their tune pretty fucking fast if they thought that their own rapes and murders would be justified using the same principles.

The lack of humanity in ALL of this is horrifying. Why is it not universally agreed that innocent people of all sides in all conflicts are indeed innocent and what happens to them is an outrage? I just don't understand it.

Israel have conscription ffs. The women didn't all choose to be soldiers.

Imagine someone being so heartless about poor Lee Rigby for instance. Just because someone is connected to the military gives no-one any right to brutalise them in cold blood.

Totally agree. It's almost as if oh they were Israelis so deserve it. They were soldiers, it was their job. Imagine if say that had happened in Birmingham or any UK city. The enemy storm in and do what they did on October 7th to our locals.