Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East
Thread gallery
35
statsfun · 20/05/2024 22:14

EasterIssland · 20/05/2024 21:39

Germany’s statement regarding ICCs prosecutors ststement

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/newsroom/-/2657616

Edited

That's a really good statement.

Dulra · 20/05/2024 22:11

Kendodd · 20/05/2024 22:07

Question for any legal brains. If Netanyahu is now wanted for war crimes, where does that leave the UK regarding any weapons we have supplied to him to carry out these actions?

I'm not a legal head but there was an article on this a few weeks back. From what I recall the government's legal advisors had raised concerns about the UK being potentially complicit in war crimes and the same concerns I think were raised in the US. If you google you'll probably find the article on it.

Kendodd · 20/05/2024 22:07

Question for any legal brains. If Netanyahu is now wanted for war crimes, where does that leave the UK regarding any weapons we have supplied to him to carry out these actions?

broodyat39 · 20/05/2024 22:02

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:12

No genocide being committed by Israel, the ICC are being anti-Semitic and these are my staunch opinions based upon facts and that's just the way it is.

Accept them or not, but you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to give you evidence for my views as I don't need to.

Just know that Netanyahu, however misguided he may be, is not going to be arrested and that the UK and USA are going to carry on supporting Israel. They are a major ally and the only democracy in the ME. Focus on Sudan as well if you want to prove you do not come across as anti-Semitic.

Edited

You definitely need help as your username suggests

PeasfullPerson · 20/05/2024 21:47

I am pleased to see that arrest warrants are being sought. Even if the practical impact is not immediate, when crimes
of this nature are committed then it is important to at least attempt to hold people accountable. If we expect people to be governed by laws then those laws need to be upheld, and applied to everybody.

It also provides living victims with official recognition of the suffering and injustice that they have been through. Failure to do this will most likely lead to more pain and feelings of anger.

Polka83 · 20/05/2024 21:26

TheFirmBiscuit · 20/05/2024 20:39

As much as some would like this won't go away easily. It is a historic decision.
Gideon Rachman in the FT opines as ever with great wisdom.

A crushing blow for Israel and a massive gamble by the ICCT
The question of how the US responds to this now becomes critical

The decision by the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court to apply for arrest warrants against Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant is a huge setback for Israel.

The fact that the ICC is also applying for warrants against the leaders of Hamas, in addition to the Israeli prime minister and defence minister, will not cushion the blow. On the contrary, outrage in Jerusalem will be further stoked by the implication that Israel is on the same moral level as a terrorist organisation.

The ramifications of the ICC’s move are enormous. Four immediate questions present themselves. First, what will the domestic impact be in Israel? Second, what impact will this have on the war in Gaza and the wider Middle East? Third, has the ICC over-reached and put its own future on the line? And fourth — and connected to this — how will the US respond to the proposed indictments?
Even the Israeli opposition has responded with outrage to the ICC’s actions. Yair Lapid, a centrist who has stayed out of Netanyahu’s governing coalition, accused the court of “complete moral failure”. This instinct to rally around the flag is unsurprising — very few mainstream politicians in Israel have questioned the conduct of the country’s army in Gaza.

However, the ICC’s move has come at a time when Netanyahu is under growing pressure to step down. Benny Gantz, a leading member of the Israeli war cabinet, said over the weekend that he would leave the government next month — unless Netanyahu came up with a new strategy for the war in Gaza and its aftermath.
Gantz, who has not been indicted, has joined in the generalised Israeli condemnation of the ICC. But many Israelis will be dismayed at the fact that their country is turning into a pariah state. Getting rid of Netanyahu and appointing a new prime minister may become a more attractive option over time, as Israel seeks to rebuild its international status.

An ICC indictment would also have severe practical implications on Netanyahu’s ability to do his job. International travel would certainly become more difficult — since he would be at risk of arrest in the 124 countries that are parties to the Rome Statute that set up the ICC. (These do not include the US, Russia or China.)
Optimists will hope that, in the long run, action by the ICC will convince Israel that its Gaza strategy is “taking Israel into a wall” — as Gantz has put it. That might persuade the next cohort of leaders to take the idea of a two-state solution with Palestine more seriously. The Israelis now know that the path back to international acceptance must involve a new peace process — and the marginalisation of Netanyahu. Many in Israel, including Netanyahu’s supporters and his far-right coalition partners, will continue to argue that any such move would imperil Israel’s survival. But the terms of the current debate within Israel will, at least, now widen.

The question of how the US will respond becomes critical. The White House has said that it does not support indictments by the ICC against Israel, arguing that — “We don’t believe they have the jurisdiction.”
But this is a relatively mild and limited condemnation compared to the full force assaults on the ICC that can be expected to come from the American right and from Donald Trump. John Bolton, Trump’s former national security adviser and a lawyer by training, has demanded that the US should now impose sanctions on the ICC and its judges. That demand is likely to be taken up in Congress and by the Trump campaign.

President Joe Biden will be reluctant to go down the sanctions route. The US is not a party to the ICC. But it does claim to be a supporter of the “rules-based international order” — and has welcomed the ICC indictment of Vladimir Putin, the Russian president. Biden also knows that many in the Democratic party are strongly opposed to Israel’s actions in Gaza — and have even accused the country of genocide. As a result, the US president has every incentive to equivocate, while hoping that Congress does not present him with a bill demanding sanctions against the ICC — which he might have to veto.
The possibility of US sanctions aimed at the ICC underlines the fact that the proposed indictments of Netanyahu and Gallant represent a momentous step by the court — potentially placing its own future on the line. Karim Khan, the court’s chief prosecutor, may have felt that he had little option. If the court is to retain its global legitimacy, it has to be seen to act against war crimes, whoever commits them and wherever they are committed.
However, the ICC unavoidably operates in a political context. It has indicted Putin, with little prospect of bringing him to trial. If Netanyahu is also able to brush aside an indictment, the court risks looking increasingly impotent and irrelevant.

This article is 100% on the ball.

It will be interesting how US responds, not least because it holds a mirror to the West.

A fall guy for what has happened in Gaza could be helpful - paradoxically it may help Israel’s standing internationally if the war crimes could be placed on the shoulders of an extreme leadership.

I have read Jewish citizens berate what the IDF are doing on this board - as they remain steadfast in support of Israel as a country. @keenforhelp ‘s views are not universal, and appear increasingly to be in the minority now on this board across a breadth of posters.

I understand Netanyahu’s facing charges for fraud? He’s going to face the legal system in one way or another, and his career as a politician seems over.

Will also be interesting what this means for Israeli internal politics. How does a democracy face this?

statsfun · 20/05/2024 21:21

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:58

The only genocide in Israel was the attack BY Hamas on innocent Jews.

Nice erasure of the other victims of October 7th. Hamas killed and took hostage every religion and every race- even fellow Muslim & Christian Arabs in their attack. The victims were majority Jewish, but then the country is over 80% Jewish so that is not disproportionate.

Oh, did you not know that Hamas isn’t 100% Muslim?

How do you define genocide? I feel it it’s important to know your personal definition since it deviates from the official, internationally agreed on definition in the Geneva Convention.

Are you genuinely trying to suggest that Hamas weren't trying to kill Jews on October 7th? That it was just an unfortunate accident of population demographics??

And you're also trying to suggest that Hamas aren't Islamist?

Are you for real???

EasterIssland · 20/05/2024 21:00

There is no genocide as per some of you
however there are war crimes and for this politicians have to be arrested as per icc

you can continue denying both. ICC has its own opinion and doesn’t have to agree with your opinion

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 20:59

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:56

Too clever for you - you have been tied in knots.

Frightening.

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:58

The only genocide in Israel was the attack BY Hamas on innocent Jews.

Nice erasure of the other victims of October 7th. Hamas killed and took hostage every religion and every race- even fellow Muslim & Christian Arabs in their attack. The victims were majority Jewish, but then the country is over 80% Jewish so that is not disproportionate.

Oh, did you not know that Hamas isn’t 100% Muslim?

How do you define genocide? I feel it it’s important to know your personal definition since it deviates from the official, internationally agreed on definition in the Geneva Convention.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Too clever for you - you have been tied in knots.

TakeMe2Insanity · 20/05/2024 20:55

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:12

No genocide being committed by Israel, the ICC are being anti-Semitic and these are my staunch opinions based upon facts and that's just the way it is.

Accept them or not, but you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to give you evidence for my views as I don't need to.

Just know that Netanyahu, however misguided he may be, is not going to be arrested and that the UK and USA are going to carry on supporting Israel. They are a major ally and the only democracy in the ME. Focus on Sudan as well if you want to prove you do not come across as anti-Semitic.

Edited

In summary, forget about Palestine! Not a chance. Keep shouting Sudan but not in this section or when we are talking about Palestinians.

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 20:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:49

On a side note, there is a long long list of war crimes the ICC can prosecute for. The arrest warrants might end up being for war crimes other than genocide. So even if you think this isn’t genocide, can you also say that no war crimes have been committed at all?

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 20:48

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:46

And Netanyahu's whilst you are at it.😉

I'm sure they're already on it 😊

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:47

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 20:46

The UN has denied that the estimated death toll of women and children in the war in Gaza has been revised downward, pointing towards a confusion between the total numbers of dead bodies recorded, and the number of those who have so far been fully identified.

Quote from the article.

You have lost any credibility whatsoever. It is a UN statement. Take the blinkers off

Edited

Carry on telling yourself this.

I do not hate - I see things as they way they are to me. Just like you.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:46

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 20:45

Your opinion is not based on fact. The ICC is not antisemitic. In fact, perhaps I should refer your accusation to them. It's quite slanderous.

And Netanyahu's whilst you are at it.😉

Nctodayjan24 · 20/05/2024 20:46

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:40

No mistruths at all - so impossible to call them out. Just your opinions.

The UN has denied that the estimated death toll of women and children in the war in Gaza has been revised downward, pointing towards a confusion between the total numbers of dead bodies recorded, and the number of those who have so far been fully identified.

Quote from the article.

You have lost any credibility whatsoever. It is a UN statement. Take the blinkers off

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:46

@TheFirmBiscuit
Great post. Just wanted to add on to this
”If the court is to retain its global legitimacy, it has to be seen to act against war crimes, whoever commits them and wherever they are committed.”

Not wherever they are committed, only war crimes committed in the countries or territories under their jurisdiction. The US and Israel are not within ICC jurisdiction. The Occupied Palestinian Territories are within ICC jurisdiction. That was decided a few years ago.

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:45

carerlookingtochangejob · 20/05/2024 20:34

There's none so blind as those who cannot (or refuse to) see!

Describes you perfectly as what I said will happen.

Just wait and see.

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 20:45

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:12

No genocide being committed by Israel, the ICC are being anti-Semitic and these are my staunch opinions based upon facts and that's just the way it is.

Accept them or not, but you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to give you evidence for my views as I don't need to.

Just know that Netanyahu, however misguided he may be, is not going to be arrested and that the UK and USA are going to carry on supporting Israel. They are a major ally and the only democracy in the ME. Focus on Sudan as well if you want to prove you do not come across as anti-Semitic.

Edited

Your opinion is not based on fact. The ICC is not antisemitic. In fact, perhaps I should refer your accusation to them. It's quite slanderous.

HelenHen · 20/05/2024 20:43

keenforhelp · 20/05/2024 20:08

Conflating the Holocaust with this is anti-Semitic.

Please quote me from the definition of antisemitism, as to what art of what I said was antisemitic, specifically?

The closest I can find is "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.", which I did not do. I did not compare the actions or the policy. I simply pointed out how you disputing the figures would be upsetting and pointless.

But thank you for ignoring the rest of my comment and taking the lazy response.

chatenoire · 20/05/2024 20:41

I'm Jewish and I think this is the right move

SummerFeverVenice · 20/05/2024 20:41

@keenforhelp
Why did you bring up the fact Israel is a democracy when saying you do not think the mass indiscriminate killing of civilians has not reached the threshold of genocide. Democratic countries have committed some of the worst genocides in history and the #1 worst ever genocide- the Holocaust. Or did you not know that Hitler was elected by the German voters?

Monarchy, democracy, etc is irrelevant to the question of is this genocide.