Gary Lineker - foot in mouth again

How has he put his foot in his mouth exactly?
What has been happening has been the worst thing HE has SEEN in his life- lots of us are aware of images due to social media. Many of the wars we went through didn't show us POV images and videos did they? How many images and videos of the first gulf war do you remember? How many images of dead civilians have you seen from the 2nd? It was filtered. Social media has really changed how many have viewed what is going on.

It's his lived experience- so what exactly has he done here that was wrong- bar express his opinion and concern?

I don't think he's put his foot in his mouth at all.

Very Telegraph.

I'm quite concerned about how strongly you feel about shutting him up... it seems a very personal vendetta, and is very strange.

I think it's wonderful that he has a voice and he is using it to speak up. I am quite pleased that my licence fee goes towards at least one individual with a conscience... when you consider how far right most of the media and the government is.

We need more like Lineker who are not afraid to speak out ❤️

Ok thanks I appreciate both things you’ve said there

Apologies if you felt that was aimed at you, it was not personal I meant in general.
I would never condemn any group based on religion or ethnicity, just the leaders who make the decisions that led to what I belive is genocide, and Yes, I do believe Hamas is responsible for the awful death toll alongside the people actually sending the bombs

As a nation not as a people

This is why I questioned you, you were speaking about people in your posts. That is citizens not the government.

I’m not sure who you are aiming ‘genocide apologist’ at but if it’s me then you’ve overstepped, my questions don’t show that.

@EasternStandard Support for the expulsion of Palestinians and Arabs was not a particularly outlying view to hold in Israel in 2016 (as in the survey below), and what I've seen indicates the country's leadership and not-insignificant numbers of the public have shifted somewhat to the right since then. That's not to say all Israelis hold those views. Just like in the UK, though, there is a fairly influential far-right.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl/index.html

Does anyone on this thread think Israel would be bombing its own cities and towns as aggressively as it has Gaza if Hamas were deeply embedded within civilian infrastructure? Just wondering...

So you think I am lying then?
How would my views (which you don't know beyind the fact that I abhor the deaths of civilians) impact what some Israeli people expressed to me completely unasked?
I actually don't care any more - if genocide apologists can completely alienate people like me who believe both sides to be accountable how can there ever be a fair exchange of views?
The complete inability to accept that Israel is killing thousands of women and children and that they could stop means that I am losing any sympathy I had for Israel - as a nation not as a people.

Even if the decision was that a full-scale military operation was the only viable course of action, there were still alternatives to how this has been done.

In the aftermath of Hamas's atrocities, I think many countries would have been willing to provide assistance in planning and implementing an operation to remove them, while minimising civilian casualties.

There are alternatives to using massive bombs to destroy urban areas in which civilians live.

There are alternatives to using AI targeted strikes on people's homes to eliminate targets and their families, when a valid target is defined as 'male'.

There are alternatives to shooting unarmed children, civilians and people surrendering.

There are alternatives to executing doctors.

There are alternatives to killing aid workers and preventing aid reaching desperate people.

There are alternatives to maiming civilians with sniper bullets.

One simple alternative is: don't do those things. Those things aren't eliminating senior Hamas figures or rescuing hostages.

Didn’t an Israeli hostage shake the hand of their captor as they were freed?

What proportion of citizens are as @Scirocco and @Hoppinggreen say and how many are as we afford to other countries? Despite what some say in conversations

An extremely technologically and strategically well-equipped force, able to access resources from some of the other most technologically and strategically capable forces in the world, has options. Some of those options are more acceptable to say in polite conversation than others, but even the less palatable ones would likely have had lower death tolls than this.

Targeted strikes, precise removals of individuals and small groups, cyber attacks, etc are all well within the capabilities of the forces available. We've seen evidence of that in recent years and within this conflict. Negotiations were also an option that could have been explored earlier than they were - they might have been productive, or they might not have been, but we'll now never know if earlier negotiations could have been successful in bringing people home.

Well I’ll take into account it may be influenced by your views and leave it open on whether it’s the case

My answer was to whether I believe that The Israelis would have wiped out Hamas without civilain loss had it been possible. I said I was unsure due to attitudes I had heard from ordinary Israelis concerning Palestinians (pre October 7th).
I think its a fair conclusion to make

@Scirocco

"The Israeli government and IDF had alternatives to this. Alternatives which would likely have had fewer deaths of Palestinian civilians and which quite possibly could have been more successful in achieving the safe return of living hostages, which should have been a priority for them"

Genuine question- what alternatives did the Israeli Government have that would have been more successful in securing the release of the hostages and preventing a reoccurrence of the 7th October attack.

My opinion was that there were no good options to achieve this.

The option Israelis clearly didn’t have was to ‘eliminate Hamas as a fighting force without killing a single civilian’ and I don’t think you can back up the claim you are making that it wouldn’t be preferable.

And in relation to pp I doubt they know from business trips, they are not meeting the government but citizens so it is their views they are talking about on here

Out of interest what proportion of people in Israel do you have in mind that would be a no to the question?

The Israeli government and IDF had alternatives to this. Alternatives which would likely have had fewer deaths of Palestinian civilians and which quite possibly could have been more successful in achieving the safe return of living hostages, which should have been a priority for them.

They chose this.

It's always difficult to think of people hating other people enough to want them dead simply because of ethnicity or faith. But that's how some people view this. They want Palestinians gone from 'their land' - which has been described as dispassionately as a comparison to removing a cockroach infestation.

That may be an upsetting comparison - a human life having equivalent worth as an insect - but it's a comparison that passed the "dinner table test" enough to be expressed fairly openly in some parts of society.

There are many people who of course would not want anyone to die. There are others, some of whom have decision-making roles in this, whose behaviour and views suggest they would not share that perspective.

Yes I know they were not business based. I still question your conclusion in answering the question below as you did.

@Hoppinggreen

Many years ago I used to work a lot with Kuwaitis and I also heard them express some pretty awful opinions on Palestinians as well.

The views I heard were not business based, they were expressed by Israelis I was mixing with who assumed I felt the same (presumably) as I never initiated any discussions on Politics.
Politics and Business are not something I mix (within reason)

No it wasn’t an excuse

It was following on from my point that people all over the world express views of others (and Jewish people are subject to much historically and presently) and it does not lead to the conclusion on deaths that the pp made

I know I just thought it was the more logical step as opposed to removal of the Israeli state which you had suggested

You course you can post what you like and no it doesn't make me feel uncomfortable why would it? It just sounded a bit like an excuse for anti-palestinian hate to mention it when you did, but I'm sure that's not what you meant to do.

It wasn’t my question.

The pp answered this one

1. If Israel could eliminate Hamas as a fighting force without killing a single civilian do you think they wouldn't?

1. Hard to say, I would like to think not but having heard some Israeli and/or Jewish people describe Palestinians in frankly awful terms I am not completely sure.

Given how many people speak of others I suggest this is a leap that is skewed or possibly more.

What was your question?