Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

689 replies

mids2019 · 14/05/2024 15:58

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx0331xxd7xo

It appears Jews are not safe in the UK at all.

Can we seriously look at the impact of anti semitism now?

Police at the home of one of the men arrested over an alleged terror plot

Three in court over alleged plan to attack Jewish community

Three men are accused of planning a gun attack on the Jewish community in North-West England.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx0331xxd7xo

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
HelenHen · 31/05/2024 12:41

swallowedAfly · 31/05/2024 10:31

Yes. I can't tell if people are being disingenuous or have very narrow exposure when they pretend to not know that lots of people think the attack was righteous, justified or outright didn't happen and was done by the idf on it's own citizens.

I also don't think people have lived in middle eastern countries and been exposed to the fact that hating jews is pretty much baked in explicitly in people's socialisation. Even in the holy book of Islam tropes about Jews are there about how they went against god for being money lenders who charged interest. (The Christian fuck up is seen as idolatry by claiming Jesus was of God but it's more approved of to marry a Christian than a Jew because they're not as bad).

It's not being islamophobic to point this out or to point out, as someone who has lived in an arab muslim country, that absolute hatred or major suspicion and dislike at the least of Jews is the norm. Perhaps not discussed in public by the more educated and higher class of society but absolutely rife in the majority of the population. Israel is surrounded by countries that want to destroy it and even there palestinians are used as a smokescreen for what is really baked in hatred towards Jews.

Even in Sinai where I have felt safer than anywhere I've been in the world and have always been warmly welcomed, well before recent events, I've seen kids throw stones at Jewish visitors. Children! Hence why I say baked into socialisation and some of these children have never attended a school so this is primary socialisation. When you're embedded into an arab community and trusted people talk more freely so you get to hear real attitudes and beliefs about various topics including what they think of Jews, homosexuals and the idea that a woman can be raped. Men you've known for years, love and think are ace chilled people will suddenly really shock you with their level of contempt.

Ironically I feel like I'm going to be attacked for Islamophobia now despite having spent a running total of about 9 years of my adult life living in a Muslim country and very happy living with Muslims in arab cultures.

I just don't think people aware of what they're talking about in terms of how Jews are viewed and dehumanised in that part of the world. I don't think people can understand how unsurprising it is that Palestinians did the things they did on October 7th and how many people cheered them on - like 'normal' people.

I don't think they understand what a knife edge Jews live on in the middle east or that a large part of the Israeli Jewish population was people thrown out of surrounding Middle Eastern countries - like literally long before Gaza the Jewish communities who had lived peacefully alongside Muslim fellow citizens were driven out following ideology not at all dissimilar to that of the Nazis.

This denial that Jewish people are not and have not always been a persecuted people with the same tropes and propaganda following them for centuries and that events of October 7th are not representative of what at least half of the people in the surrounding nations would like to see happen on mass is just naive or disingenuous.

Sorry long and probably repetitive.

I'm really sorry you have experienced all of that. Though I have no doubt that many Palestinians can relate to what you said and have experienced the same hatred and dehumanisation.

None of the hatred on either side justifies any of the violence from either side.

stomachamelon · 31/05/2024 11:22

@swallowedAfly brilliant post.

PeasfullPerson · 31/05/2024 10:44

@BusyMummy001 what percentage of protestors do think actually support October 7th? What evidence is there to support this? And what action do you think should be taken to identify these supporters and deal with them?

swallowedAfly · 31/05/2024 10:31

BusyMummy001 · 21/05/2024 17:54

@Dulra I think your assumption is possibly wrong - many, many pro Palestine demonstrators actually believe that what Hamas did was righteous given the treatment of peoples in Gaza by Israel. Have been stunned by the black and white perspective many of these (young) people.

It seems impossible to agree that Hamas, and those Palestinians enabling/protecting them may be as equally ‘bad’ as many of the actions/actors of the IDF and Israel; that the Palestinians deserve some empathy for the way they’ve been forced to live over recent decades at the same time as understanding Israel’s rage and heartbreak at the evens of 7/10; no-one seems to consider the role that the UN states, UK included, have had historically in the conflicts of the last 100 years and that we share culpability for this.

Much easier to take a polarised, binary view - and this is what we’re seeing and hearing on the marches and the protests.

Yes. I can't tell if people are being disingenuous or have very narrow exposure when they pretend to not know that lots of people think the attack was righteous, justified or outright didn't happen and was done by the idf on it's own citizens.

I also don't think people have lived in middle eastern countries and been exposed to the fact that hating jews is pretty much baked in explicitly in people's socialisation. Even in the holy book of Islam tropes about Jews are there about how they went against god for being money lenders who charged interest. (The Christian fuck up is seen as idolatry by claiming Jesus was of God but it's more approved of to marry a Christian than a Jew because they're not as bad).

It's not being islamophobic to point this out or to point out, as someone who has lived in an arab muslim country, that absolute hatred or major suspicion and dislike at the least of Jews is the norm. Perhaps not discussed in public by the more educated and higher class of society but absolutely rife in the majority of the population. Israel is surrounded by countries that want to destroy it and even there palestinians are used as a smokescreen for what is really baked in hatred towards Jews.

Even in Sinai where I have felt safer than anywhere I've been in the world and have always been warmly welcomed, well before recent events, I've seen kids throw stones at Jewish visitors. Children! Hence why I say baked into socialisation and some of these children have never attended a school so this is primary socialisation. When you're embedded into an arab community and trusted people talk more freely so you get to hear real attitudes and beliefs about various topics including what they think of Jews, homosexuals and the idea that a woman can be raped. Men you've known for years, love and think are ace chilled people will suddenly really shock you with their level of contempt.

Ironically I feel like I'm going to be attacked for Islamophobia now despite having spent a running total of about 9 years of my adult life living in a Muslim country and very happy living with Muslims in arab cultures.

I just don't think people aware of what they're talking about in terms of how Jews are viewed and dehumanised in that part of the world. I don't think people can understand how unsurprising it is that Palestinians did the things they did on October 7th and how many people cheered them on - like 'normal' people.

I don't think they understand what a knife edge Jews live on in the middle east or that a large part of the Israeli Jewish population was people thrown out of surrounding Middle Eastern countries - like literally long before Gaza the Jewish communities who had lived peacefully alongside Muslim fellow citizens were driven out following ideology not at all dissimilar to that of the Nazis.

This denial that Jewish people are not and have not always been a persecuted people with the same tropes and propaganda following them for centuries and that events of October 7th are not representative of what at least half of the people in the surrounding nations would like to see happen on mass is just naive or disingenuous.

Sorry long and probably repetitive.

Itsabeautufulday · 23/05/2024 15:45

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 17:30

On a thread about a planned, deadly antisemitic attack in the UK, any discussion of Israel brings with it a suggestion that UK Jews only have themselves to blame. The derailing on this thread has been awful and says a lot about some posters' intentions. It doesn't matter how supportive any one individual might be of Israel's actions - this shouldn't even be part of a discussion on this thread. This thread should have been a space to express concerns about the dangers facing the Jewish community in the UK but it seems we're not even allowed that.

This.

Yalta · 23/05/2024 13:17

Dulra · 21/05/2024 11:16

Your post is just offensive. Considering how many Palestinians in Gaza have lost their lives and you are suggesting they are at fault because they didn't flee!

They just go anywhere but where the danger is.
Yeah try doing that on a 41km strip of land with border closed, not as simple as you appear to make out

Did you actually read my question

I was wondering if there were families who saw what Hamas did and instead of celebrating. They left.

I don’t know where you get the blame from

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 20:31

Sorry if that doesn’t sound sympathetic. I am very sympathetic to anyone experiencing antisemitism or any racism. I don’t think this is necessarily a “safe space” but … in some ways that’s good because it has exposed the nature of the problem.

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 20:25

EmeraldsAreForever · 21/05/2024 19:25

"This thread should have been a space to express concerns about the dangers facing the Jewish community in the UK but it seems we're not even allowed that"

@Lilacblossom70. Exactly. It's extremely telling, and it makes me feel really sad.

Aah don’t worry .. I’ve felt that . This is a niche group and not representative in my view. Lots of people who are posting are firmly entrenched and are not particularly interested in learning anything new . It’s a bit depressing but I have learnt quite a bit about how social media works and how people who think differently from me think. I’ve learned a lot . Sometimes I’ve reflected on my own views and shifted position- sometimes not. I don’t view this as a space that represents mainstream thinking. I view it as a space that allows me to learn about different perspectives.

EmeraldsAreForever · 21/05/2024 19:25

"This thread should have been a space to express concerns about the dangers facing the Jewish community in the UK but it seems we're not even allowed that"

@Lilacblossom70. Exactly. It's extremely telling, and it makes me feel really sad.

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 18:10

poshsnobtwit · 21/05/2024 18:09

Tried to PM you but it didn't work. I totally agree with you, I didn't see the thread title until after I posted and felt it really wasn't appropriate, so sincere apologies for that.

Thanks for saying that 💐

poshsnobtwit · 21/05/2024 18:09

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 17:30

On a thread about a planned, deadly antisemitic attack in the UK, any discussion of Israel brings with it a suggestion that UK Jews only have themselves to blame. The derailing on this thread has been awful and says a lot about some posters' intentions. It doesn't matter how supportive any one individual might be of Israel's actions - this shouldn't even be part of a discussion on this thread. This thread should have been a space to express concerns about the dangers facing the Jewish community in the UK but it seems we're not even allowed that.

Tried to PM you but it didn't work. I totally agree with you, I didn't see the thread title until after I posted and felt it really wasn't appropriate, so sincere apologies for that.

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 17:57

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 17:49

The pp was describing people who see things in black and white simplistic ways and I assumed you were responding to that.
The original comment was “Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help. In my view they deepen the rifts with their insistence on understanding things with so little nuance.” is one I agree with and is often in much evidence on here .

Thank you, yes. And my comment was in response to this one:

* If you are pro Israel just come out and say that you think what is happening is justified*

BusyMummy001 · 21/05/2024 17:54

@Dulra I think your assumption is possibly wrong - many, many pro Palestine demonstrators actually believe that what Hamas did was righteous given the treatment of peoples in Gaza by Israel. Have been stunned by the black and white perspective many of these (young) people.

It seems impossible to agree that Hamas, and those Palestinians enabling/protecting them may be as equally ‘bad’ as many of the actions/actors of the IDF and Israel; that the Palestinians deserve some empathy for the way they’ve been forced to live over recent decades at the same time as understanding Israel’s rage and heartbreak at the evens of 7/10; no-one seems to consider the role that the UN states, UK included, have had historically in the conflicts of the last 100 years and that we share culpability for this.

Much easier to take a polarised, binary view - and this is what we’re seeing and hearing on the marches and the protests.

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 17:49

Dulra · 21/05/2024 17:40

I don’t think either lens is helpful because there are wrongs and rights / good and bad on BOTH sides.

I meant more in relation to a right and wrong approach for Israel to defend themselves. As opposed to whose good or bad. I assumed we all agreed what Hamas did was wrong.

Edited

The pp was describing people who see things in black and white simplistic ways and I assumed you were responding to that.
The original comment was “Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help. In my view they deepen the rifts with their insistence on understanding things with so little nuance.” is one I agree with and is often in much evidence on here .

Dulra · 21/05/2024 17:40

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 17:19

“I don't think it's through a lens of good/ bad it's more through a lens of wrong/ right.”
I don’t think either lens is helpful because there are wrongs and rights / good and bad on BOTH sides.

I don’t think either lens is helpful because there are wrongs and rights / good and bad on BOTH sides.

I meant more in relation to a right and wrong approach for Israel to defend themselves. As opposed to whose good or bad. I assumed we all agreed what Hamas did was wrong.

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 17:30

poshsnobtwit · 21/05/2024 17:24

I agree it's perfectly possible to simultaneously be both, I'm sure many are. It's the ones who clearly aren't appalled I'm referring to.
@PeasfullPerson I've only just seen the thread title now, I started reading only a few pages ago and whilst threads do naturally drift onto other areas, I agree it should not have been derailed in this way.

On a thread about a planned, deadly antisemitic attack in the UK, any discussion of Israel brings with it a suggestion that UK Jews only have themselves to blame. The derailing on this thread has been awful and says a lot about some posters' intentions. It doesn't matter how supportive any one individual might be of Israel's actions - this shouldn't even be part of a discussion on this thread. This thread should have been a space to express concerns about the dangers facing the Jewish community in the UK but it seems we're not even allowed that.

poshsnobtwit · 21/05/2024 17:24

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 14:35

Loads of people are pro-Israel and simultaneously appalled at the situation in Gaza, yet understand the need to go after Hamas. The point is that the situation is complex (and has been for a very long time, long before the current crisis). I don't have the answers and neither does anyone here.

Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help. In my view they deepen the rifts with their insistence on understanding things with so little nuance.

I agree it's perfectly possible to simultaneously be both, I'm sure many are. It's the ones who clearly aren't appalled I'm referring to.
@PeasfullPerson I've only just seen the thread title now, I started reading only a few pages ago and whilst threads do naturally drift onto other areas, I agree it should not have been derailed in this way.

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 17:19

Dulra · 21/05/2024 15:10

I agree the situation is complex but certain elements of it are not. It isn't because the situation is complex that access to humanitarian aid is blocked it is wrong and unnecessary and has no bearing on the conflict, it is done with the sole purpose of causing pain. The recent revelation that the IDF were informing protesters of aid truck logistics demonstrates that.

Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help.
I don't think it's through a lens of good/ bad it's more through a lens of wrong/ right.

“I don't think it's through a lens of good/ bad it's more through a lens of wrong/ right.”
I don’t think either lens is helpful because there are wrongs and rights / good and bad on BOTH sides.

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 17:17

PeasfullPerson · 21/05/2024 16:59

This thread has gone to rubbish. It’s been derailed by some (in my opinion) weird ideas about Keir Starmer, followed by comments which are insulting to Jewish people and comments which show a lack of empathy for people in Gaza. It’s as if people showed up on here to wind everyone up.

I agree!

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 17:16

Humdingerydoo · 21/05/2024 13:21

(I have family who didn't manage to flee Europe, so only one member of my family survived the Holocaust after years in a ghetto and then concentration camps, and other family who did manage to flee Iraq. But they only managed that because of help from Kurdish and Iranians who helped smuggle them out. That level of help hasn't been available to people in Gaza)

Absolutely. It is completely unfair to judge all Palestinians by the actions of a few. Those who celebrated after October 7th would no doubt have been the aggressive Hamas supporters. I imagine there were many Palestinian citizens sheltering in their houses , horrified by events and terrified of what they must have known would happen next. They probably wouldn’t have had any chance of escape (unless they were well connected with Hamas. )

Limesodaagain · 21/05/2024 17:12

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 14:35

Loads of people are pro-Israel and simultaneously appalled at the situation in Gaza, yet understand the need to go after Hamas. The point is that the situation is complex (and has been for a very long time, long before the current crisis). I don't have the answers and neither does anyone here.

Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help. In my view they deepen the rifts with their insistence on understanding things with so little nuance.

💯 agree

PeasfullPerson · 21/05/2024 16:59

This thread has gone to rubbish. It’s been derailed by some (in my opinion) weird ideas about Keir Starmer, followed by comments which are insulting to Jewish people and comments which show a lack of empathy for people in Gaza. It’s as if people showed up on here to wind everyone up.

BusyMummy001 · 21/05/2024 16:56

Cherryon · 14/05/2024 17:34

A single data point doesn’t make a trend.

I am looking forward to the Apr 23-Mar 24 Hate Crime statistics report to illuminate the impact of the Gazan war on both antisemitism and antimuslim hate crimes. The report will be released on 10 October 2024. It’s obvious there will be an increase, not so clear if it will be a record breaking increase or if the increase can be attributed to the protests.

2021-22
“In year ending March 2022, where the perceived religion of the victim was recorded, two in five (42%) of religious hate crime offences were targeted against Muslims (3,459 offences). The next most commonly targeted group were Jewish people, who were targeted in just under one in four (23%) of religious hate crimes (1,919 offences).”

”Religious hate crimes increased by 37 per cent between year ending March 2021 and year ending March 2022 (from 6,383 to 8,730). This increase follows two years where the number of these offences had fallen.”

2022-23
”In the year ending March 2023, where the perceived religion of the victim was recorded, over 4 in 10 (44%) of religious hate crime offences were targeted against Muslims (3,400 offences). The next most commonly targeted group were Jewish people, who were targeted in around 1 in 5 (19%) of religious hate crimes (1,510 offences).”

”Religious hate crimes decreased by 4% between the year ending March 2022 and the year ending March 2023 (from 8,602 to 8,241).”

What is interesting about these stats is that they understate the impact of antisemitic crime.

6.5% of the population identify as muslim (approx 4.4m) and 3400 experienced an attack 2022-23; compared to 1510 individuals from only 338, 500/0.5% of the population identifying as Jewish…

this means that a muslim person has 0.007% chance of being the victim of racially based hate crime, whereas a Jewish person has 0.04% ….

In simple terms a Jewish person is nearly 6x more likely to be a victim of hate crime.

Dulra · 21/05/2024 15:10

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 14:35

Loads of people are pro-Israel and simultaneously appalled at the situation in Gaza, yet understand the need to go after Hamas. The point is that the situation is complex (and has been for a very long time, long before the current crisis). I don't have the answers and neither does anyone here.

Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help. In my view they deepen the rifts with their insistence on understanding things with so little nuance.

I agree the situation is complex but certain elements of it are not. It isn't because the situation is complex that access to humanitarian aid is blocked it is wrong and unnecessary and has no bearing on the conflict, it is done with the sole purpose of causing pain. The recent revelation that the IDF were informing protesters of aid truck logistics demonstrates that.

Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help.
I don't think it's through a lens of good/ bad it's more through a lens of wrong/ right.

Lilacblossom70 · 21/05/2024 14:35

poshsnobtwit · 21/05/2024 13:57

The victim blaming is absolutely appalling. If you are pro Israel just come out and say that you think what is happening is justified, but please stop making the starvation, homelessness and genocide out to be the fault of the people. Please just have the balls to take off the blinkers and acknowledge the carnage the Israeli government are purposely creating. But Hamas, human shields, stupid people not moving somewhere safe...it has got so tiring.

Edited

Loads of people are pro-Israel and simultaneously appalled at the situation in Gaza, yet understand the need to go after Hamas. The point is that the situation is complex (and has been for a very long time, long before the current crisis). I don't have the answers and neither does anyone here.

Those who shout loudly and can only see things through a lens of good/ bad really do not help. In my view they deepen the rifts with their insistence on understanding things with so little nuance.

Swipe left for the next trending thread