Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

Of course you would. Because we've been called cockroaches and human animals so mindless is restrained.

@Auvergne63 interesting that that's your takeaway on a thread about a plot to kill Jews i the UK, If it was just the language used rather than the substantive point - which is that there are people propping up antisemites in these demos, theb I think calling them 'mindless' is quite restrained.

It’s disgusting and the mindless sheep waving their flags every weekend about things they don’t understand are really not helping.

I don't think I made myself clear, as English is not my first language, which hugely frustrating for me. The English language is very nuanced at time and obviously, I have failed here.
I found this really good ( I think) article which explains what I wanted to say. It also echoes what you wrote regarding the true meaning of Zionism.
I am indeed horrified that my post might be perceived as anti semitic. I am far from being this or racist in any shape and form. I find it abhorrent. I understand that these marches provoke strong feelings in the Jewish community and those feelings are real. I avoid town when the EDL marches (as any person of colour does) but I do not call for them to be banned because it is our democratic right to protest, hard earned right too.

I don't think I made myself clear, as English is not my first language, which hugely frustrating for me. The English language is very nuanced at time and obviously, I have failed here.
I found this really good ( I think) article which explains what I wanted to say. It also echoes what you wrote regarding the true meaning of Zionism.
I am indeed horrified that my post might be perceived as anti semitic. I am far from being this or racist in any shape and form. I find it abhorrent. I understand that these marches provoke strong feelings in the Jewish community and those feelings are real. I avoid town when the EDL marches (as any person of colour does) but I do not call for them to be banned because it is our democratic right to protest, hard earned right too.

I don't think I made myself clear, as English is not my first language, which hugely frustrating for me. The English language is very nuanced at time and obviously, I have failed here.
I found this really good ( I think) article which explains what I wanted to say. It also echoes what you wrote regarding the true meaning of Zionism.
I am indeed horrified that my post might be perceived as anti semitic. I am far from being this or racist in any shape and form. I find it abhorrent. I understand that these marches provoke strong feelings in the Jewish community and those feelings are real. I avoid town when the EDL marches (as any person of colour does) but I do not call for them to be banned because it is our democratic right to protest, hard earned right too.

Unfortunately ‘Zionism’ has been adopted as an insult or a term to describe something sinister. You yourself do the same by saying Zionism means territorial expansion of the Jewish state. This is now what Zionism means. The nutter extremists in the West Bank are a tiny tiny proportion of Jewish people and the majority do not support them. The West Bank is also not Gaza and the two are often falsely conflated.

Many hide behind being ‘anti Zionist’ rather than anti Jewish, but the problem is that most Jews will be zionists. All it means to most Jews is support for a Jewish national state, based on Israel being the ancient homeland of Jews. The mistake is to state that this right to self determination is at the expense or exclusion of any other people. This is not what Zionism means; and you will see Jews live happily alongside Arabs, Christians, druze etc in a democratic, successful, peaceful state.

So you may not feel you’re openly anti semetic, but you’ve clearly allowed yourself to adopt some of the false tropes about Jews I.E. that zionists are trying to steal land. Israel literally gave over Gaza, they have no interest in it. The issue many Palestinians have is that Israel is Israel, they do not want a two state solution, and in 2000 arrafat walked away from a deal to give over even more land. It’s never been about that. Arafat would only accept a one state solution, and in so many ways, the Palestinians have been consistent in that desire as they have remained committed to the cause in their demands to this day for Israel to be destroyed entirely.

I also believe anyone who marches alongside those who they know to be anti semetic are complicit. If you were at any other form of protest and the KKK or EDL appeared you wouldn’t stand alongside them, you’d expel them or leave.

Im so sorry to hear you have been the victim of racism. It makes me feel really sad that people who have experienced that wouldn’t be more open to listening to those who are trying to explain why the marches are such a threat.

If you told me that something I was doing was encouraging or inciting hatred or violence I would initially feel extremely defensive (as I’ve no doubt made you feel), but I would stop to reflect because I would feel horrified at the risk of that ever being true.

my intention is not to personally attack you, I just disagreed strongly with what you said.

EXCELLENT post @Muthaofcats im going to copy and paste your Zionism explanation into my notes to use in future because it’s absolutely spot on (I shall say it is not my words!)

Unfortunately ‘Zionism’ has been adopted as an insult or a term to describe something sinister. You yourself do the same by saying Zionism means territorial expansion of the Jewish state. This is now what Zionism means. The nutter extremists in the West Bank are a tiny tiny proportion of Jewish people and the majority do not support them. The West Bank is also not Gaza and the two are often falsely conflated.

Many hide behind being ‘anti Zionist’ rather than anti Jewish, but the problem is that most Jews will be zionists. All it means to most Jews is support for a Jewish national state, based on Israel being the ancient homeland of Jews. The mistake is to state that this right to self determination is at the expense or exclusion of any other people. This is not what Zionism means; and you will see Jews live happily alongside Arabs, Christians, druze etc in a democratic, successful, peaceful state.

So you may not feel you’re openly anti semetic, but you’ve clearly allowed yourself to adopt some of the false tropes about Jews I.E. that zionists are trying to steal land. Israel literally gave over Gaza, they have no interest in it. The issue many Palestinians have is that Israel is Israel, they do not want a two state solution, and in 2000 arrafat walked away from a deal to give over even more land. It’s never been about that. Arafat would only accept a one state solution, and in so many ways, the Palestinians have been consistent in that desire as they have remained committed to the cause in their demands to this day for Israel to be destroyed entirely.

I also believe anyone who marches alongside those who they know to be anti semetic are complicit. If you were at any other form of protest and the KKK or EDL appeared you wouldn’t stand alongside them, you’d expel them or leave.

Im so sorry to hear you have been the victim of racism. It makes me feel really sad that people who have experienced that wouldn’t be more open to listening to those who are trying to explain why the marches are such a threat.

If you told me that something I was doing was encouraging or inciting hatred or violence I would initially feel extremely defensive (as I’ve no doubt made you feel), but I would stop to reflect because I would feel horrified at the risk of that ever being true.

my intention is not to personally attack you, I just disagreed strongly with what you said.

There was more than a bit of bad press - there was definitely a lot of anti Irish/ anti Catholic sentiment around the time of the Birmingham pub bombings ( and earlier) but I agree I don’t think it was ever as bad as the abuse targeted at Muslims and Jews at the moment . Maybe because Middle Eastern ethnicity is more visible than Irish ethnicity?
Any kind of racism is abhorrent but if it is based on visible differences ( whether clothing or skin colour ) it must make individuals feel terrifyingly vulnerable.

You're right, probably not. Catholics received a bit of bad press but nothing close to hate or violence directed at them.

There's definitely a lot of ignorance - this is why I prefer, when I see it demonstrated, to try to educate people from a Jewish standpoint rather than immediately yelling at people that they are antisemites.

You can usually tell, looking at someone's social media, if they are an antisemite or ill-informed, and if the latter I make a point of explaining to people why they might not want to say something. Trying to shame people by screaming 'Antisemite!' at them is unhelpful as then of course they will get defensive and are more easily influenced by dodgy people coming along and going 'Ugh, those Jews, they just call everything antisemitism' - I prefer to approach it as 'I don't think you want to be saying that, you need to understand it's antisemitic' as that might actually cause some reflection because you are calling out what they said, not casting aspersions on them as a person.

I know what you’re saying but imagine if there was a child sex abuse scandal amongst Rabbis or Imams - do you think the everyday Muslim and Jew would be left alone following the backlash?

Sorry but totally disagree with you - these marches are EXACTLY why anti semitism is rising and attacks are increasing. Your refusal to accept the connection is a huge part of the problem;
Antisemitism is rising because people conflate Judaism with Zionism. You can be a Zionist and Jewish but you can also be Jewish without being a Zionist. By Zionist, I mean people who want the territorial expansion of the state of Israel (see the settlers in the West Bank and the eviction of the Bedouins).
Antisemitism is rising because people do not understand that the Israeli government is behaving the way they are, not because they are Jewish, but because they have an agenda.
Do I believe some marchers are antisemitic? Yes, without a doubt. All of them, no. I understand the anxiety of the Jewish community around the marches. I have been there when the EDL marches. My husband and I have been victims of open racism, some by the police.
You also make some very personal attacks on my character whilst you know nothing about me and my background. You also make a lot of baseless assumptions about me. Kindly, refrain from repeating this. It is uncalled for.

It’s funny how attacks on UK Catholics didn’t suddenly spike once the uncovering of the number of priests who were raping children the world over was exposed.
I don't think that's the same thing. They are crimes committed by people within the faith. The abusers, where possible, were dealt with by the law and many people, including myself, practicing that faith turned their back on it. Whereas the hate towards Jews and Muslims is an irrational hate stemming from prejudice and ignorance.

There's definitely a lot of ignorance - this is why I prefer, when I see it demonstrated, to try to educate people from a Jewish standpoint rather than immediately yelling at people that they are antisemites.

You can usually tell, looking at someone's social media, if they are an antisemite or ill-informed, and if the latter I make a point of explaining to people why they might not want to say something. Trying to shame people by screaming 'Antisemite!' at them is unhelpful as then of course they will get defensive and are more easily influenced by dodgy people coming along and going 'Ugh, those Jews, they just call everything antisemitism' - I prefer to approach it as 'I don't think you want to be saying that, you need to understand it's antisemitic' as that might actually cause some reflection because you are calling out what they said, not casting aspersions on them as a person.

I rarely hear religious hate expressed towards any other groups.

Yes and for both Muslims and Jews there’s always a thinly veiled caveat of “What do you expect when Israel/Afghanistan/the Taliban are doing XYZ” rhetoric. It may not be said like that but that’s what people mean.

It’s funny how attacks on UK Catholics didn’t suddenly spike once the uncovering of the number of priests who were raping children the world over was exposed.

@Muthaofcats I think you misunderstand what a protest march is for. People don't tend to march just to show outrage (though sometimes they might), the strategic aim of a march is to put pressure on the state to change policy. Obviously, the UK state doesn't support Hamas, so marching against them wouldn't do anything.

I suggest proportionate defence would not involve killing tens of thousands in return (including thousands of children) and levelling a city. The Israelis did defend themselves quite ably from the initial Hamas attack, what they're doing now is just revenge slaughter. Their justification that wiping out Hamas would be an act of defense doesn't hold water when they have to create countless additional blood feud grievances to do it. No one expects the children who manage to survive this attack in Gaza to grow up with love in their hearts for Israel.

Where does all this end?

1. You can have the problem rumble on until the Palestinians are eliminated, their lands absorbed, the people exiled or murdered. This could take another 100 years or more.
2. A regional or world war happens and Israel is wiped out by neighbouring states. This seems unlikely now, but who knows what the world will look like in another few decades.
3. Some form of peace process (like that in Northern Ireland) with some kind of political settlement with agreed borders or political representation and an end to the violence. The people in power on both sides right now are belligerent, but in the next generation this could change. A peace summit managed to end the Second Intifada, after all.

People who are steadfastedly against a peaceful settlement are essentially saying that they would prefer that one side should eventually be wiped out by the other.