Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

I think a lot of people are completely oblivious to it, simply because Jews are a tiny minority in this country and as Jew-hate takes a different form to more conventional racism that we learn about, it needs reading up on to understand.

Over 20 years ago I read a book by Jon Ronson (who is Jewish) called Them: Adventures with Extremists where he spends some time with various groups with extreme views including an London-based Islamist who raises money for Hamas and Hezbollah (pre 9/11 and he has since been kicked out of the country), a journalist hunting down the Bilderberg Group, David Icke and Aryan Nations. And I was shocked that these very different people with different extreme views all had issues with Jews (except Icke insists lizards, but those around him probably don't). It wasn't something I had even given any thought to.

When Corbyn became Labour leader, a political commentator I rate who is Jewish started talking about the antisemitism in Labour. So I looked into it, spent some time on twitter and what I found was absolutely disgusting. On the surface you had 'coded' stuff like the Young Labour account tweeting 'Free Palestine' at Jewish MPs, or the 'Israel Lobby' controlling Tom Watson and the despicable treatment of Luciana Berger, but you just needed to scratch the surface slightly to find blatant holocaust denial and 'Jews control the world' conspiracies. I felt physically sick reading it so god knows how Jewish people felt. And then I'd come on MN to find people asserting that there was no antisemitism in Labour and it was all being fabricated (by, guess who?) to discredit Corbyn.

But if I hadn't looked into it myself, and been aware of what to look for due to prior reading, I think it would have just been some background news thing that I'd have been aware of with 'one side asserts x while the other side strenuously denies'.

I find it quite worrying that people are wandering into support for the people of Gaza (which is obviously much needed) while being completely oblivious to the antisemitic discourse which surrounds Israel. If you don't know that 'Zionist' has been used as a code word for Jew by antisemites for years, you wouldn't necessarily be alarmed by the demonisation of Zionists on placards and in general discourse about Israel. You can see on MN that a lot of people assumed that Zionist meant 'supporter of Netanyahu' because of the way the word has been used to mean someone despicably evil. Because they didn't know to be wary, and they don't realise what is really going on.

Similarly they wander into the assumption that people have an issue with Israel purely because of the things that Israel has done (which I don't support) and not because Israel is a Jewish state. See chanting support for the Houthis because they 'support Gaza'. They may be surprised that the Houthi slogan includes 'Death to Israel and a curse upon Jews' but they're probably never going to look into it deeply enough to find out. I've also seen on MN the assertion that Hamas are not antisemitic, the holocaust was a European thing and that the Middle East never had any issues with Jews until Israel was created. Which, if you look at the history, is just obviously wrong.

And if you support Gaza, it is very easy to be exposed to these views without realising what is at the root of them. It's a form of grooming, in a way.

I think a lot of people are completely oblivious to it, simply because Jews are a tiny minority in this country and as Jew-hate takes a different form to more conventional racism that we learn about, it needs reading up on to understand.

Over 20 years ago I read a book by Jon Ronson (who is Jewish) called Them: Adventures with Extremists where he spends some time with various groups with extreme views including an London-based Islamist who raises money for Hamas and Hezbollah (pre 9/11 and he has since been kicked out of the country), a journalist hunting down the Bilderberg Group, David Icke and Aryan Nations. And I was shocked that these very different people with different extreme views all had issues with Jews (except Icke insists lizards, but those around him probably don't). It wasn't something I had even given any thought to.

When Corbyn became Labour leader, a political commentator I rate who is Jewish started talking about the antisemitism in Labour. So I looked into it, spent some time on twitter and what I found was absolutely disgusting. On the surface you had 'coded' stuff like the Young Labour account tweeting 'Free Palestine' at Jewish MPs, or the 'Israel Lobby' controlling Tom Watson and the despicable treatment of Luciana Berger, but you just needed to scratch the surface slightly to find blatant holocaust denial and 'Jews control the world' conspiracies. I felt physically sick reading it so god knows how Jewish people felt. And then I'd come on MN to find people asserting that there was no antisemitism in Labour and it was all being fabricated (by, guess who?) to discredit Corbyn.

But if I hadn't looked into it myself, and been aware of what to look for due to prior reading, I think it would have just been some background news thing that I'd have been aware of with 'one side asserts x while the other side strenuously denies'.

I find it quite worrying that people are wandering into support for the people of Gaza (which is obviously much needed) while being completely oblivious to the antisemitic discourse which surrounds Israel. If you don't know that 'Zionist' has been used as a code word for Jew by antisemites for years, you wouldn't necessarily be alarmed by the demonisation of Zionists on placards and in general discourse about Israel. You can see on MN that a lot of people assumed that Zionist meant 'supporter of Netanyahu' because of the way the word has been used to mean someone despicably evil. Because they didn't know to be wary, and they don't realise what is really going on.

Similarly they wander into the assumption that people have an issue with Israel purely because of the things that Israel has done (which I don't support) and not because Israel is a Jewish state. See chanting support for the Houthis because they 'support Gaza'. They may be surprised that the Houthi slogan includes 'Death to Israel and a curse upon Jews' but they're probably never going to look into it deeply enough to find out. I've also seen on MN the assertion that Hamas are not antisemitic, the holocaust was a European thing and that the Middle East never had any issues with Jews until Israel was created. Which, if you look at the history, is just obviously wrong.

And if you support Gaza, it is very easy to be exposed to these views without realising what is at the root of them. It's a form of grooming, in a way.

I think, unfortunately, I’ve been slow to pick up this sort of stuff. I guess that’s the point - if you’re not the target group you will be slower to spot the more subtle and insidious stuff- the sly hints, coded references etc - you’re only going to get those if you are a) mixing in antisemitic circles so know what coded references to use or b) are Jewish so experience the sly coded language more often.
The perpetrator can then gaslight - “you’re imagining it - that’s not what I meant etc” 😣

@Limesodaagain

Tommy Robinson is cynically using Gaza as an opportunity to spread Islamaphobia.

Ironically there has been no evidence of Islamaphobia from the Jewish community which I think is commendable. There actually have been no utterances of Muslim hate by the Israeli government and their enemy is simply Hamas and I think this should be borne in mind.

No, the Israeli government are using 'hamas' as a cover all term to pretend they are not islamophobic. Nobody is buying it though. There seems to be no distinction between Hamas and the normal Palestinian people.

Also here I've seen so many posts suggesting that all Palestinians are Hamas... and even that anyone marching over here in support of Palestinine are supporting Hamas.

@Limesodaagain

Tommy Robinson is cynically using Gaza as an opportunity to spread Islamaphobia.

Ironically there has been no evidence of Islamaphobia from the Jewish community which I think is commendable. There actually have been no utterances of Muslim hate by the Israeli government and their enemy is simply Hamas and I think this should be borne in mind.

Honestly not got a fucking clue what happened in a thread I didn't see. You throw the accusation around quite a bit... so I've no idea. It's not on me, nothing to do with me and is an entirely different thread so I'm not sure why you're trying to make me either support you or not. I've no reason to believe you. I've no reason to not believe you!

OK, well I’m telling you what happened - just pretend to believe it for a second. Do you not think it’s antisemitic to do that?

I didn't see that post so I can't possibly comment on whatever direction the thread took.

I wasn’t actually talking about a specific thread - but I’ll give an actual example so you can perhaps understand. Bringing Israel into a thread about antisemitic comments Diane Abbott made. That really happened the other day. Israel was never mentioned and then someone commented that they found it offensive that children were being carpet bombed.

Do you understand why it’s antisemitic/racist to do that?

I know you have. I remember what you posted.

The thread about British Jews is in a section about the middle east though? Should it be in a different section maybe?

Perhaps... but if somebody says something, perhaps there's no need to presume they're actually saying something else.

Perhaps... but if somebody says something, perhaps there's no need to presume they're actually saying something else.

I’m not sure you understand - racists often don’t say “I’m racist” out loud but say enough to make it clear they are racist.

An example would be bringing Israel into discussion on a thread about British Jews.

My post really wasn’t that hard to understand.

Bloody hell that's naive.