Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

If you're talking about me how about reading all my posts on this thread. You seem to have a vendetta against me in particular and constantly misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I am from a Jewish background and so I know well that everyday Jewish people are not killing people from Gaza.

You should no more claim there is a legitimate link between antisemitism and protesting, than claiming a legitimate link between the policies and actions of the Israeli government and antisemitism. Both are wrong.

That some people choose to take their disagreement with the Israeli government out on Jewish people generally is totally wrong. It does not negate the moral responsibility to protest against injustices. In my view, you can and should be anti-antisemitism and anti-Netanyahu. Many Jewish people are anti-Netanyahu.

British Jewish people are clearly not responsible for Netanyahu's morally bankrupt actions.

I also think posters who are vocal in their support for Palestine should be more careful about weighing into a conversation on anti semitism with criticism of Netanyahu being their main point.

I agree with this, violently.
mumsnet on this issue is an absolute cess pit for much of the time.

It’s fairly astonishing to me that after more than 7 months of dismissing Jewish concerns, denying antisemitism, minimising issues, there are posters on this board who are only now thinking they ought to look into basic things like ‘what’s a Zionist?’ or ‘what is antisemitism?’

This board has actively driven away many Jewish posters. If people on here are wondering what a hostile environment for Jews looks like, they needn’t look too far.

But this is a thread about anti semitic attacks on Jewish citizens here and you linked that to Netanyahu. I do understand your point . But you seem more concerned about blaming Netanyahu than about calling out anti semitism.

If someone doesn't take antisemitism seriously then that's their fault.
Yes it is their fault but we don't live in a perfect world and if they dismiss it, it doesn't affect them does it?

Stop trying to shift the blame.
Not once have I suggested it is right or just if this happens but it's a risk all the same.

No you're blaming him for antisemitism being minimised.
No I blaming him for minimising the term antisemitism not minimising antisemitism the two things are different. Maybe you agree with him that the UK/ US/Ireland/ EU/ Spain/ UN/WHO and ICC are all antisemitic but I don't and feel these blanket accusations are disingenuous.

Not the people doing the minimising.
I am not suggesting people are minimising antisemitism I am suggesting that people may not take it seriously if the term is used for things that aren't antisemitic.

The boy who cried wolf. So the claim of antisemitism is used falsely so often that when it really happens, we'll then they shouldn't have cried wolf then should they?
I am not saying they shouldn't cry wolf I am saying they should cry wolf when there is a wolf but if Netanyahu cries wolf when there isn't the real threats may be lost in the noise.

Blaming everyone for antisemitism except the antisemites.
I wasn't doing that I was commenting on a post yesterday so the context of my point has now been lost completely so I'm going to stop this conversation now because it is beginning to not make sense out of the context of yesterdays discussion.

But you did say that Netanyahu’s comments were making things unsafe for Jews in this country. You seemed to be saying that Netanyahu was to blame for the increase in anti semitism ?

That's not what I said.

Read my post which you have just quoted, it explains exactly what I meant. I was responding to a poster looking for evidence of when the term antisemitism was used for the wrong thing. I was pointing out that Netanyahu's use of the term inappropriately had the danger of making the word meaningless which could run the risk of minimising the serious accusation of anti-semitism which unfortunately does impact Jews across the world. I never blamed Netanyahu for the rise in antisemitism.

@PeasfullPerson The more we can learn from each other the better. 💐

@PeasfullPerson you are getting some flak on this thread but I think it's admirable that you are going to do some reading on things you've been picked up on.

The idea that you can't say anything critical of Israel without being accused on AS is honestly just so tedious and reminds me of my DM reading MIL going on about how you can't say anything these days, I'm sure you know the type.

Israel is full of people who are critical of the government. Large numbers of British Jews are too. Why aren't they on the marches? That's a question to reflect on (yes, some are but the majority find them.very hostile). Clue: it's not because they love Netanyahu or the scenes we are seeing in Gaza.

Criticism of the Israeli government is not antisemitic BUT it is very common for that criticism to be expressed in a way that very quickly moves into antisemitic territory. We have seen that on the marches(just as an example). If you saw a handful of islamophobic placards, you wouldn't brush them off as one-offs and expect everyone to be ok with them.

No, what you need to do is read what people are actually writing. Not make assumptions and inferences. Not feel sorry for yourself because of how difficult you're finding it to not accidentally say things that are either offensive to Jews or antisemitic, and then get upset because people have taken offense. If you say offensive things, chances are that people will be offended. Some times you probably don't mean to cause offense but that doesn't mean you didn't.

So read what we're saying. Listen. And then do better.

“I never once said Jews in the UK are responsible for anything Israel does. I'm unsure how you picked that up from what I said.”
But you did say that Netanyahu’s comments were making things unsafe for Jews in this country. You seemed to be saying that Netanyahu was to blame for the increase in anti semitism ?

I think that maybe on some of these threads about Jewish issues then, I need to start ignoring people who make those bot like comments, because otherwise I end up spending more time defending myself and other groups, against ideas that most people don’t actually believe, which then makes my comments come across as being in bad faith? I think I’m quite sensitive to these comments after a bad experience I had in real life.

@PeasfullPerson I think you need to listen more. When you say things like 'Because I don’t believe that the protests are wholly to blame for a rise in antisemitism.....I am in the wrong' then you clearly are not listening because literally noone has ever said this, except perhap a bot stirring things up. Noone who is remotely connected to or clued up on the issue believes this. Antisemitism runs through society & culture. People on this thread are discussing the many ways it manifests itself but people wanting to 'start a discussion' from a position of bad faith are not helpful. That is why you will get push back

Thank you for this excellent and very moving post. (I think I might know from your description which Nazi atrocity you mean. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I first read about it when I was a teenager in one of Martin Gilbert's books, I cried a lot, and I will never forget it as long as I live.)

Just for the record, I'm British, not Jewish, and have no connections to Israel or Israelis that I'm aware of. Many years ago, I lived for a while in a town in central Europe, and was told about the fate of the Jewish population of that town during the Nazi occupation. After being crammed into a ghetto for many months, starved, worked to death and persecuted, the entire population, men, women and children, were forced into cattle trucks and taken to the death camp of Treblinka .They were gassed on arrival, and to my almost certain knowledge, there were no survivors. It was so painful and awful just to hear about, and I still often think about it now, how an entire population of several thousand people - who had done nothing at all wrong! - were destroyed in a matter of days, maybe even mere hours (Treblinka wasn't massively far from the town). After I left that town, I lived in a German town for many years, and a building near my home had a plaque on the outside which commemorated the building's former owners, an elderly Jewish couple who died in Auschwitz. The town's Jewish population fell from a four-figure number in 1938/39 to a two-figure number by 1945. It was utterly horrifying to contemplate.

Like you, I completely understand why Jewish people need their own country and a safe haven, and given the horrendous rise in anti-semitism in the last few months, I still completely understand why Israel needs to exist and must continue to exist. I loathe the current Israeli government and I think Netanhayu is a dangerous lunatic. But I find the calls for Israel to no longer exist to be dangerous too, and the enormous rise in anti-semitic violence and harassment we're seeing distresses me hugely. The fact that a segment of the British population don't feel safe in their own country distresses me hugely.

This is the first time I've ventured into this part of MN because quite honestly some of the posters here scare me and some of the posts enrage me, and I doubt I'll post here again after this comment, but I really wanted to tell any Jewish members who feel frightened and isolated that I stand with you.

Sorry to hear there was another attack.

Thanks Ella. I appreciate the way you explain your perspective about the marches and the information you’ve provided here. I’ve already started reading the large PDF on antisemitism and then I might try some videos. If you or anyone else thinks any of the resources on there are particularly useful please let me know.

I’m sorry that you and your community have experienced that level of threat and that you are forced to consider your safety while simply going about your business. You shouldn’t have to deal with that.
I think that sometimes the less extreme voices get intermingled with the other ones on here and it’s hard to remember who said what, and the context in which they said it. Especially when somebody has been what appears to be deliberately antagonistic and then somebody feels the need to respond. Because I would never believe this sort of behaviour is acceptable, do not consider Jewish people to be a large evil homogenous group, and while you may think I don’t say the right things, I wouldn’t stand by and do nothing if I saw something in everyday life.

Yes...well done to the french police

Yes, the guy who tried to burn down the Synagogue? Absolutely awful.

Yup, £1600 per child per year is our current "voluntary" contribution that helps pay for security at our state school. That's in a normal year. Since October we also have something like 8 parent volunteers on top of that. Just for our kids to be safe at school.