Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

I no longer wear my Magen David :(

Short time ago (Fri afternoon) in Hendon, NW London, which is heart of Jewish community, a young Jewish man was attacked by group of teenagers calling them f…… Jews and struck with bottle.

Police were called, crowds built up & situation became intense and incendiary.

https://x.com/James_J_Marlow/status/1801675378345304453

Bat shit.

Kicked some members of Jewish Voice For Labour out of the party for doing stuff like supporting Labour against the Witch Hunt.

Normally people would file that under ‘tackling antisemitism’.

Out of interest what antisemitic things had Starmer, the man with Jewish children, done??

Oh dear Lord 🤣🤣

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…even when it tells us it isn’t a duck, it is

Im done trying to ask people to denounce antisemtism when they clearly don’t want to. It only looks bad on them not me

KEIR STARMER.

That's who she has called out as antisemitic. While saying things about his Jewish wife that have since been deleted.

Opinions may vary as to the level of support that Jewish people may feel at this intervention.

Context is everything! I did not read the thread and have no idea if it was antisemitic or if the thread had already derailed that way, or if the post was even relevant. I am not sure why you try to derail each thread into a personal assault on me though. My refusal to condemn a post I haven't read does not mean I am antisemitic. Yet you are determined to make it so. For this reason, as I explained to you in the other thread where you're doing the same thing, I will not engage with you anymore.

Have a good day

I condemn antisemitism when I see it

Can you give an example?

I’m asking a simple question - is it antisemitic to bring Israel into a thread that is NOT about Israel but about antisemtism against British Jews?

If you don’t wanna answer that one, how about - is it Islamophobic to being the atrocities on Saudi Arabia into a thread about the Islamophobia British Muslims experience?

So you ask me to condemn a thread that I haven't read, which has nothing to do with this one. When I refuse to condemn it, you suggest that means I'm antisemitic. Please listen to your own bullshit and stop it.

I condemn antisemitism when I see it... not when someone busts in and aggressively demand that I condemn something I haven't even seen.

Nope... just no.

It doesn’t stop people doing the wide eyed “Antisemitic? Me? What because I support Palestine - I’m sick of these accusations!”

Yes, exactly. There are other motivations at play I suspect (well, I don't just suspect- they are clear as day, let's face it).

Wow it definitely isn’t! The IHRA is 25 years old, and started in Sweden IIRC.

This playing down of such an important organisation that works to protect Jewish people and other groups persecuted in the Holocaust sails dangerously close the Holocaust denial winds

I watched a video a couple of weeks ago of a very nice young man showing the Cambridge protest encampment, which was all very nice, no posters calling for intifada or anything problematic. Then right at the end there were some people with a microphone talking about 'demands', one of which was to reject the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

I mean, that's a bit of a weird thing for a peace protest to be calling for, isn't it? Nothing to do with supporting the people of Gaza, calling for antisemitism to be redefined, presumably so that you can say the antisemitic things you want to say without being told it's antisemitic. That really shouldn't be a major concern of people who are merely Pro-Palestine. Better to just not say those things, I'd have thought.

The IHRA thing is bizarre - I was told that it was only a draft definition or something on another thread a few months ago.

The way I see it is that some people are using the war in Gaza as an excuse for antisemitism.

And some people are using antisemitism as an excuse to shut down legitimate criticism of the Israeli government.

This then puts people who have experienced either side of this on the defensive, which makes it harder to act from a place of curiosity, tolerance and understanding.

Please if you can manage it, because I understand it’s not easy, don’t stop talking and trying to educate people about antisemitism.

In among the divisive comments that seek to derail conversations, I am sure there is a lot of misunderstanding and people who are open to listening, who might not even be contributing any words.

@mids2019 yes, there has been. You just haven't registered it.

@YaMuvva
At least with the far right who walk the streets saying “fuck the Jews”, I know exactly where they stand. The so-called progressive human-loving liberals are the ones I fear more. the stealth racists who won’t ever say it out loud and are cunning and calculated enough to always teeter on the edge but never quite cross the line.

Absolutely 100 fucking percent.

To them I say: We see you. I know what you are and you are fooling no one

And to certain posters (especially long-term posters) who have learned how to use dog-whistles rather than doing an actual explicit antisemitism, and then feign utter shock and anger at the suggestion they might be antisemitic - not only do we see you, but the thousands of lurkers on the CITME board probably do too.

The statement about the Amalek was early religious.

Certainly there are Jewish people who have tried to educate people about antisemitism - David Baddiel with his book Jews Don't Count. Dave Rich wrote 'Everyday hate: How antisemitism is built into our world and how you can change it'. Rachel Riley has received a huge amount of flak for talking about it.

I've been attempting to call out antisemitism on MN but people aren't listening. The minute you try to talk about antisemitism you get either 'oh, so you support genocide and the murder of children then?' Or 'oh so you think I'm antisemitic because I support Palestine?'.

Over and over. So many Jewish posters have been upset by what is posted here that they have given up attempting to 'help people understand the potentially insidious nature of antisemitism' when people apparently don't give a shit about blatant antisemitism. Or think that antisemitism isn't worthy of discussion because Gaza is the only thing worth talking about. Or think that any antisemitism discussions are Israel taking control of the conversation.

You yourself asked me to reflect on why I spent more time talking about antisemitism in protests than I do talking about the horrendous events in Gaza. And now you're wondering why more people aren't talking about antisemitism? I talk about antisemitism because it is needed. And because very few other people are. And because some of those few are Tommy fucking Robinson using it to bash Muslims, so a more reasonable view is needed to prove that it's not only the far right that care.

There is no shortage of people posting about how terrible Israel's actions are.

Yep.

I can’t tell you how many times posters just stonewall you when you educate them on antisemitism - it speaks volumes.
Luckily there is an organisation called the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance - a organisation not in the least bit affiliated with Israel and also not exclusively about Jewish people - which has 35 countries as member organisations who subscribe to their VERY specific definitions of antisemitism. A poster on this very thread recently argued for ages that their country wasn’t a member alliance (they are and no amount of showing actual proof in various forms could convince them). It was SO bizarre. They were literally saying “I can be antisemitic because my country isn’t on that list”, when it was.

I mean WHY wouldn’t you say, when presented this by a Jewish person, “it’s great there’s a clear definition, I hope my country is on there because it means they subscribe to fighting racism, and I’ll learn from these definitions”? Why would you fight against your country being on there, proudly declare antisemitism therefore doesn’t apply to you and in the same breath whine that you’re always accused of being antisemitic?

At least with the far right who walk the streets saying “fuck the Jews”, I know exactly where they stand. The so-called progressive human-loving liberals are the ones I fear more. the stealth racists who won’t ever say it out loud and are cunning and calculated enough to always teeter on the edge but never quite cross the line. To them I say: We see you. I know what you are and you are fooling no one.

Well yes the Government and certain media outlets on the right have been focused on division, and certain media outlet on the left have been actively perpetuating the narratives outlined by Giraffe.

But outside the media and government, on social media for instance, there is actually rather a lot of people speaking out and trying to educate on antisemitism, as well as the actual history of Jews in the middle east, not the imagined history that suits an anti-Zionist narrative. But unfortunately these attempts are met with:

ridicule
accusations of lying and other tropes and conspiracy theories such as being paid for by Israel or some shadowy Zionist institutions
accusations of being genocide supporters
antisemitism often coded as a anti-Zionism
outright hate, hostility and belligerence
Slogans used to deny Jewish experience such as 'but Gaza' 'I'm fed up of being called an antisemite' 'can't say anything without being called an antisemite' 'stop playing the antisemite card'

I mean on Mumsnet alone lots of Jewish women have been trying to educate posters on the insidious nature of antisemitism but they're met with all of the above.

So what do you propose we do to "help people understand".

I've seen it quite a few times in various threads.

Just as not all Jewish people or Israeli citizens are the Israeli government, not all Palestinians or Muslims are Hamas or pro-Hamas. Yet many people struggle to recognise those things.