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Conflict in the Middle East

Please can someone simply explain what's going on

89 replies

lancslass17 · 10/05/2024 22:11

I don't really watch the news but feel like I've missed something, please can someone explain what's going on with Israel and Iran? Ta

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Mercurial123 · 17/05/2024 18:40

Lovinglife57 · 11/05/2024 21:42

If you have nothing nice to say say nothing at all …sometimes ppl need things explained to them it does not mean they are lazy I have mental health and sometimes need things explained to me …hope that helps !!!!

No it doesn't

YaMuvva · 17/05/2024 00:58

9021Pho · 11/05/2024 17:05

I can give you the background to everything happening up to today if that helps (my father is a retired history teacher and the ME was actually on the national curriculum during the 80s/90s - the good thing about learning from school text books is that they are balanced). It may be a bit long though.

Jewish people are, by definition, Indigenous to the Land of Israel. They were displaced numerous times by colonizers, most notably in the first and second centuries, when Roman colonizers enslaved hundreds of thousands of Jews and took them to Europe as slaves. So they arrived to Europe as slaves - they are not European (this is key).

It was the Romans that changed the name of the land to “Palestine." (The Emperor Hadrian to be precise). The letter "p" doesn't even exist in Arabic. They changed the name to humiliate Jews.

The Islamic armies conquered Palestine in the seventh century - genociding entire Jewish communities along the way. By the time of the Arab/Islamic conquest, Jews were the majority in Palestine.

The process of Arabization of Palestine is a prime example of settler colonialism. Like colonizers before them, the Arabs displaced the Jewish population (Hakim Edict of 1012) or forced them to convert to Islam (forced Arabization/Islamization).

For 2500 years straight Jews have tried, repeatedly, to regain sovereignty in the land.

The modern political Zionist movement was one of hundreds of movements that sought to bring Jews sovereignty in their ancestral, indigenous homeland. The Ottomans, who then occupied Palestine, banned Jews from purchasing land in Palestine, because Jews were second-class citizens.

Zionists aimed, explicitly, to retain autonomy via legal mean - not through violence. Though they used the word "colonist" (which had a different meaning in the 1800s dictionary), they explicitly said that Zionism was not a colonialism movement but the restoration of autonomy of an ancient nation. They then armed themselves in repose to repeated Arab kidnappings and murders of Jews.

During WWI, the British sponsored Arab nationalism to weaken their enemy, the Ottoman Empire. The British designed the Palestinian flag. There was no "Palestinian nationalism" independent of Arab nationalism until the 1920s, when raging antisemite and future Hitler BFF Amin Al-Husseini ( it’s a bit of a stretch to say he’s the god father of Palestinian nationalism, but he sort of is) had a little falling out with the rest of his Arab nationalists and decided he wanted to do his own thing.

In fact, the Arab nationalists in Palestine, at the 1919 Jerusalem Congress, affirmed the following: "We consider Palestine nothing but part of Arab Syria and it has never been separated from it at any stage. We are tied to it by national, religious, linguistic, moral, economic, and geographic bounds."

After genocidal maniac Al-Husseini had his falling out, he began inciting the Muslim masses against the Jews by proliferating the lie that the Jews were trying to destroy the Al Aqsa mosque (which the Arab colonizers built atop the ancient Jewish Temple to humiliate the Jews). This lie got hundreds of Jews slaughtered in the most horrific ways all the way into the 1930s and it's still disseminated all over Palestinian social media to justify violence against Israeli Jews.

In reality, it is the Jordanian Islamic Waqf that has sovereignty over Al Aqsa - not Jews or Israel. Jews are not even allowed to pray there and can only visit at limited hours. This is the status quo agreed upon with Jordan which Jews have not broken.

During WWII, not only did the Palestinian Arab leadership join the Nazis (many of the Palestinian leadership were made honorary SS officers, actually), and prevent Jewish immigration, but they also REJECTED repeated offers from the British for a sovereign Palestinian state in ALL of Palestine. Multiple times. The reason? They wouldn't accept a state if there were any Jews there.

After decades of increasing violence and Arab rejections of a unified state, the British got sick of Palestine. So they handed the problem over to the United Nations. The UN decided to investigate what to do. They held an investigative committe meant to interview both Arab and Jewish leaders. The Jews pleaded their case. The Arabs threatened their people with death if they engaged with the investigators. Is there any surprise then that the UN committee concluded partition was the best way forward?

To back track a bit. Not even Jews had considered partition until the 1930s. What they envisioned was something of a binational federation for both Jews and Arabs. But after the genocidal Arab antisemitic violence of the 1930s, the Jewish leadership pretty much concluded that a kumbaya coexistence was impossible. And so they began supporting the idea of partition.

Anyway, in 1947 the UN voted in favor of partition, with predominantly Arab territory assigned to the Arab state, and predominantly Jewish territory assigned to the Jewish state. The Jews were naturally elated - sovereignty for the first time in 2000 years! The Arabs were incensed. They immediately published a leaflet which stated the following: "The Arabs have taken into their own hands the Final Solution of the Jewish problem. The problem will be solved only in blood and fire. The Jews will soon be driven out."

And I obviously don’t have to tell you what the original Final Solution was (they were making reference to the Holocaust). Al-Husseini was well aware because he was Hitler's good mate, there’s even photographic and primary source evidence that he personally went to visit the concentration camps in Europe https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/amin-al-husseini-nazi-concentration-camp).
I think Al-Husseini also died in Germany if I’m not mistaken.

These weren't just empty words. They began slaughtering Jews on the street (a bit like what we saw on October 7th last year) and a civil war broke out. This is the one that Palestinians call the Nakba, meanwhile the Israelis call it their War of Liberation.

For the first four months of the war, while the Arabs committed massacre after massacre, the Jewish forces used a policy of restraint, fighting a purely defensive war. But then something happened. The Arab forces - the Palestinian Arab forces, because the other Arab countries hadn't entered the conflict yet - besieged 100,000 Jewish civilians in Jerusalem (what with blockades being rather topical today), cutting them off from water, food, and medical supplies. These weren't recent immigrants. These were Jews belonging to some of the most ancient Jewish families in Palestine. Arab villagers destroyed Jewish relief trucks (and even Red Cross trucks!) attempting to break through the siege. The Jewish forces got really fed up. And so they moved from the defensive to the offensive. Remember, this is three years after the Holocaust and these people are explicitly threatening - and executing - a genocide against the Jewish people. In trying to liberate Jerusalem, the infamous Deir Yassin massacre happened. Every single Jewish leader condemned it. No Arab leader condemned the many massacres of a Jews before that. And you know what? The Arabs retaliated, slaughtering an entire medical convoy attempting to reach Jerusalem. On May 14, 1948, in accordance with the end of the British Mandate and the UN partition plan, Israel declared its independence. Seven much more powerful Arab armies immediately invaded, with the help of BRITISH commanders and a force of about 30,000 former Nazis. The US - the whole world - enacted an arms embargo on the Jews. Israel basically had no outside help.

There are NO Zionist recorded expulsions during the first four months of the war, before the tide turned. The first 300,000-350,000 Palestinians to flee did so before the Arab armies invaded, and generally belonged to the upper classes or were the families of Palestinian leaders. Were there expulsions after that? Yes. But these expulsions were not a one way street. After the Jews failed to liberate Jerusalem, the remaining 40,000 Jews of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria (which Jordan renamed the West Bank), and Gaza were expelled. Another 850,000 Jews were expelled in retaliation from the rest of the Arab world...Jews who had lived there for centuries, if not millennia. So it was ugly (that's what war is). “Population exchanges" were extremely common during the time period (so we need to observe the context of all of this) and the Israel-Palestine population exchange is peanuts statistically compared to other much larger population exchanges, such as the Turkish-Greco population exchange or the India-Pakistan population exchange. After the war, Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip. Neither tried to form a Palestinian state there. In fact, the original Palestinian Charter (like constitution) explicitly stated that those territories did not belong to Palestine. But wait - there’s more. Because when Israel captured those territories in 1967, all of a sudden the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) amended their little Charter to say that those territories belonged to them. It's almost like they wanted them because the Jews had them.

The PLO was established in Moscow in 1964. In their Cold War with the US, the Soviets had a vested interest in gaining the support of Arab nations, many of which were oil-rich. So they did what, for 2000 years, people have done best: use antisemitism as a political tool to mobilize the population. The Soviets, the sworn enemies of the Nazis, disseminated Nazi propaganda films from the 1930s all over the Arab world. They even enacted a secret KGB operation in the Middle East called "Zionist Governments." According to the then head of the KGB: "We had only to keep repeating our themes-that the United States and Israel were ‘fascist, imperial-Zionist countries" bankrolled by rich Jews.'" KGB allies even told the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, to stop talking about annihilating Jews and Israel and “turn your terror war into a struggle for human rights." (yes, really).

From day one, the PLO's tactics were pure and unabashed terrorism, like the stuff we saw on 7th Oct, but also attempted biological warfare like poisoning Israel's water supply. So as a result, Israel wanted to destabilise the PLO and started investing into a HUMANITARIAN organisation named Mujama al-Islamiya, which sponsored and ran nurseries, clinics, universities, etc. many, many years later, this organisation turned into Hamas - an organisation that explicitly aims to annihilate every last Jew, not just in Israel, but on planet earth.

This took a me while to type in the end, so I’ll explain about Iranian and Israeli relations after a break!

@9021Pho you’re a total legend for posting this 👏🏼👏🏼

TomeTome · 13/05/2024 19:43

Well there’s a rabbit hole! This was interesting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan.

Canaan - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan

TomeTome · 13/05/2024 18:35

@SharonEllis I know they weren’t Egyptians I didn’t know they came from Palestine originally. I thought they were “promised” a land to be safe in by God and Moses lead them to Israel across the desert? Eating manna (sp?) from heaven? I thought it was new land to them at that point?

SharonEllis · 13/05/2024 18:27

TomeTome · 13/05/2024 15:31

Jewish people are, by definition, Indigenous to the Land of Israel. They were displaced numerous times by colonizers, most notably in the first and second centuries, when Roman colonizers enslaved hundreds of thousands of Jews and took them to Europe as slaves. So they arrived to Europe as slaves - they are not European (this is key).
I thought they arrived in Palestine from Egypt where they’d been kept as slaves lead by Moses who was brought up by Egyptian royalty having arrived in a basket floating down the river (origin of the term Moses basket). Where the Jewish slaves came from I don’t know.

No the Israelites (clue in name!) moved to Egypt & then the Exodus followed but they are not Egyptians.

TomeTome · 13/05/2024 15:31

Jewish people are, by definition, Indigenous to the Land of Israel. They were displaced numerous times by colonizers, most notably in the first and second centuries, when Roman colonizers enslaved hundreds of thousands of Jews and took them to Europe as slaves. So they arrived to Europe as slaves - they are not European (this is key).
I thought they arrived in Palestine from Egypt where they’d been kept as slaves lead by Moses who was brought up by Egyptian royalty having arrived in a basket floating down the river (origin of the term Moses basket). Where the Jewish slaves came from I don’t know.

SharonEllis · 12/05/2024 21:04

DrBlackbird · 12/05/2024 21:02

Completely and utterly agree on not condoning the Isreali response.

Nevertheless, it had felt to me that many of the main media outlets including the BBC have been irresponsible in making no mention of Hamas’s role (apart from the initial attack) and have portrayed the conflict as David vs Goliath. Not much nuance or emphasising the role that Hamas continues to play. Sometimes I’m startled to hear of how Hamas continues to fire rockets at Israel because its actions are reported so little.

Its barely reported at all.

DrBlackbird · 12/05/2024 21:02

Timee · 12/05/2024 17:48

@Battytwatty This sums up perfectly what I have been thinking. Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond. They have thrown their own citizens right under the bus. I am appalled about what’s happening to the Palestinians but Hamas have led them to slaughter (in my opinion).

I agree. On October 7th My immediate thought was Israel will destroy Hamas for this, whatever it takes. Their response (which I am not condoning), was entirely and 100% predictable.

Completely and utterly agree on not condoning the Isreali response.

Nevertheless, it had felt to me that many of the main media outlets including the BBC have been irresponsible in making no mention of Hamas’s role (apart from the initial attack) and have portrayed the conflict as David vs Goliath. Not much nuance or emphasising the role that Hamas continues to play. Sometimes I’m startled to hear of how Hamas continues to fire rockets at Israel because its actions are reported so little.

SharonEllis · 12/05/2024 18:49

Anyone heard ftom the op @lancslass17 ? Odd to expect others to do the work without a response or word of thanks?

Bicyclethief · 12/05/2024 18:21

*Auvergne63
*
Following years (actually centuries) of persecution from Islamists may be it's no surprise that Jews turned to Zionism?

History isn't your strong point, is it?
*
My history isn't a strong point? Tell me, what the history of Islam and Jews is.

I really want to know.
*

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 12/05/2024 18:02

saverstogether · 12/05/2024 09:26

Sorry but I’ve got better things to do than type out a long spiel for someone who I already know will just deliberately misinterpret it, and focus on one small sentence.

I think statements like these are hard to take seriously. It seems 'off' to me to pick apart someone else's version of history, labelling it as propaganda but 'have better things to do' than explain why.

Whether we like it or not, we are all victims of propaganda in one form or another. The problem with many political discussions today is that it feels you have to be firmly 'Left' or 'Right'. The real truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

That's why (to me at least), if you're going to say someone else's view is biased, it's good to share your own bias too so that perhaps light can be shone on the whole story!

Yes! That's exactly how I feel.

I loathe all this 'you are wrong and ill informed. Don't fall for propaganda'

'Okay, so please help me understand better.'

No. It's not my responsibility to help you be less stupid. Go and educate yourself.'

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 12/05/2024 17:56

JSMill · 11/05/2024 18:52

Please don't take that as factual. It's spectacularly biased. I am LMAO at someone who professes to be an expert because their dad was a history teacher. I have a degree in politics and history. It's a complex subject. No one can possibly explain it to you in a couple of paragraphs on social media. I suggest you read up yourself l.

I don't doubt there is some bias, or some bits left out, if only for brevity as much as anything. There always is, in the telling of anything this complex. But given that you have a degree in history and politics, how about instead of telling people to 'read up on it' themselves, you write your own highly detailed and informative post the correct the bias or inaccuracies as you see them, in the previous post?

Trying to 'educate' oneself on matters like this often results in days and weeks of wasted time, reading yet more highly biased or inaccurate stuff, because finding balanced, impartial and truthful information these days is hard.

The internet is awash with so-called experts on the history of Israel and Palestine. You don't even have to get yourself a serious publisher to spout your inaccurate and ill-researched nonsense these days, you just write a blog or head to YouTube and hold court ike you are some sort of authority on the matter. It's hard to know what's worth listening to and what isn't.

So please, I invite you to write an equally detailed and informative post to challenge that one? If you do, I'll read it and give it the same consideration. Then I might go and do some extra reading to decide which one of you is the most truthful and the least biased.

If you don't care to do that, that's fine, but I am not prepared to dismiss that post as 'spectacularly biased' based on your word, without any explanation as to why you think that.

Timee · 12/05/2024 17:48

@Battytwatty This sums up perfectly what I have been thinking. Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond. They have thrown their own citizens right under the bus. I am appalled about what’s happening to the Palestinians but Hamas have led them to slaughter (in my opinion).

I agree. On October 7th My immediate thought was Israel will destroy Hamas for this, whatever it takes. Their response (which I am not condoning), was entirely and 100% predictable.

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 12/05/2024 17:35

TwilightSkies · 11/05/2024 18:26

Basically Israel stole the Palestinian people’s land because they believe they are special and entitled to colonize.
Israel has been violent to Palestinians for decades.
Now they are finishing what they started, what they always intended to do, which is destroy Gaza and all the innocent people that live there.
The IDF has murdered thousands of babies and children, especially since October.
America funds and supports Israel.
Anyone who says Israel shouldn’t be committing genocide is called anti-Semitic for some reason.

Did you read the very detailed and informative post directly above yours?

Of course if you'd like to come up with something as detailed and informative yourself, in your own words, to dispute it, then please do be my guest.

Battytwatty · 12/05/2024 16:44

DrBlackbird · 12/05/2024 15:20

Hamas is dedicated to the eradication of the Isreali state.

Yes, Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party has used / is using indiscriminate and disproportionate force against wider Palestinian people in its retaliation for 7th Oct but this is the purpose of Hamas.

Whether the govt of Israel leaves Gaza alone or not, Hamas will continue its violent excursions against the Isreali people in an effort to achieve its stated objective.

We never hear any explanation on the news of why Hamas is happy allowing its fellow citizens to be collateral damage and why Hamas continues to use their fellow citizens as the shield they hide behind.

This sums up perfectly what I have been thinking. Hamas knew exactly how Israel would respond. They have thrown their own citizens right under the bus. I am appalled about what’s happening to the Palestinians but Hamas have led them to slaughter (in my opinion).

SharonEllis · 12/05/2024 16:41

DrBlackbird · 12/05/2024 15:20

Hamas is dedicated to the eradication of the Isreali state.

Yes, Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party has used / is using indiscriminate and disproportionate force against wider Palestinian people in its retaliation for 7th Oct but this is the purpose of Hamas.

Whether the govt of Israel leaves Gaza alone or not, Hamas will continue its violent excursions against the Isreali people in an effort to achieve its stated objective.

We never hear any explanation on the news of why Hamas is happy allowing its fellow citizens to be collateral damage and why Hamas continues to use their fellow citizens as the shield they hide behind.

So true. Billions of aid to Hamas squandered on building tunnels and military installations just to attack Israel but no bomb shelters, safe rooms etc for the population, and an active policy of using human shields, hiding military capability under hospitsls etc and of course senior leaders siphoning off personal fortunes and living abroad. Netanyahu is corrupt & will get justice eventually but Hamas operates on a different level. To attack Israel knowimg what the response would be and not have planned to protect their population is incredible.

DrBlackbird · 12/05/2024 15:20

PinkFrogss · 11/05/2024 21:50

I clearly said they were extremists and their actions were horrific. But I also don’t think it would have happened if Israel had just left Gaza be.

Hamas is dedicated to the eradication of the Isreali state.

Yes, Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party has used / is using indiscriminate and disproportionate force against wider Palestinian people in its retaliation for 7th Oct but this is the purpose of Hamas.

Whether the govt of Israel leaves Gaza alone or not, Hamas will continue its violent excursions against the Isreali people in an effort to achieve its stated objective.

We never hear any explanation on the news of why Hamas is happy allowing its fellow citizens to be collateral damage and why Hamas continues to use their fellow citizens as the shield they hide behind.

Battytwatty · 12/05/2024 14:31

@changefromhr

how would you explain it then? I’m interested to hear other opinions

ArchaeoSpy · 12/05/2024 14:28

@lancslass17

Copilot Using the web
The recent conflict between Iran and Israel:

Background:

Shadow War: For years, Iran and Israel have been engaged in a shadow war, attacking each other’s assets without admitting responsibility.
Escalation: During the current war in Gaza (sparked by Hamas’s assault on nearby Israeli communities), attacks between the two countries have intensified.

Recent Events:

Iran’s Attack on Israel:
Iran launched a barrage of more than 300 drones and missiles towards Israel.
The attack included 170 drones, 30 cruise missiles, and at least 110 ballistic missiles

Israel’s Response:
In retaliation, Israel conducted a targeted operation in Iran, which was limited in scope.
This operation followed an earlier Israeli airstrike that killed several Iranian military officers

Root Causes:
Historical Enmity: Iran and Israel were allies until the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran.

Specific Incidents:

Israeli Strike on Iranian Consulate in Syria:
On April 1, an Israeli airstrike targeted an Iranian consulate building in Damascus.

Among the casualties was Brig Gen Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a senior commander in the Quds Force (Iran’s elite Republican Guards).

The Quds Force plays a key role in arming Hezbollah in Lebanon1.

Iran’s Missile and Drone Attack on Israel:

Iran’s direct attack on Israel was in response to the Israeli strike on the Iranian consulate.

It marked Iran’s first-ever direct attack on Israel.
The conflict escalated significantly with both sides using advanced weaponry.

In summary, the recent conflict reflects longstanding tensions, ideological differences, and strategic interests between Iran and Israel.

ArchaeoSpy · 12/05/2024 14:23

Cold war 2.0

Limesodaagain · 12/05/2024 14:02

Timee · 12/05/2024 12:04

The OP was asking specifically about Iran. As far as I can see only one poster has attempted to explain the background to Iran's position with Israel. Be intersting to know more.
I'd love to learn more but it seems impossible to get past entrenched and unwavering opinions on either side.

Yes I agree. I am interested in hearing different versions and I’m capable of understanding that even a very well meaning and non biased account would find it impossible to tell the “whole” story to the satisfaction of both sides.
I think the posters who just mock or insult are not doing themselves any favours. It would be much better if they worked through the points they disagreed with and refuted them properly . I would be very interested in having the post dissected critically ( but I appreciate that takes a lot of time )

SharonEllis · 12/05/2024 12:19

Timee · 12/05/2024 12:04

The OP was asking specifically about Iran. As far as I can see only one poster has attempted to explain the background to Iran's position with Israel. Be intersting to know more.
I'd love to learn more but it seems impossible to get past entrenched and unwavering opinions on either side.

There's lots of information online.

Timee · 12/05/2024 12:04

The OP was asking specifically about Iran. As far as I can see only one poster has attempted to explain the background to Iran's position with Israel. Be intersting to know more.
I'd love to learn more but it seems impossible to get past entrenched and unwavering opinions on either side.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 12/05/2024 12:00

HeidiInTheBigCity · 12/05/2024 11:54

I never claimed I was particularly unbiased or that this was a major point.

What I did say - maybe not clearly enough - was: "the very use of the "no P" argument marks the entire thing out as exceptionally ill-informed; I am not wasting my time unpicking middle-school level claims."

The original text appears to be gone now but I do believe I recall that it also contained a number of similarly silly claims such as the Arab expansion being a textbook case of settler colonialism. It really wasn't - a conquest, yes, brutal, arguably, but not "settler-colonial". Because Arabs did not settle the conquered land in large numbers. They assimilated the conquered instead. Yes, sometimes by force. There is no "morally superior" in that or anything of the sort. But it's not "settler-colonial" and as a factual claim that's embarrassingly stupid! [But it might make sense to claim this if you're more interested in propaganda than in actual information - specifically because settler-colonial discourse is dominant within pro-Palestinian narratives and you get to "tu quoque".]

This sort of stuff just gives the impression that someone went ahead and fed ChatGPT with the most silly pro-Israel arguments from a "worst of Reddit" list.

And, no, I don't think anyome needs to engage in detail with such stuff. Because it's a time-wasting tactic! Takes a lot more effort to unpick a tidal wave of BS than to post one and run!

I'm generally quite happy to unpick arguments. There are very interesting and, above all, intellectually honest (or at the very least: thought through) pro-Israel arguments. And I'm more than happy to engage with those, even in detail. In fact, I even find it interesting. Just not "my great aunt had a degree in civil engineering, and here are a bunch of points from Twitter on how come psychic healing works via quantum physics" level stuff.

I countered that it did start before 7th October and given centuries of of persecution maybe it's no surprise that Jews turned to Zionism.

Point in case: this, for example, is a perfectly valid argument! In fact, it's pretty much "an extremely brief summary of how Herzl saw it". I'd more than happily not only engage with this but, with a bunch of caveats (such as, to name but one, the emergence of Zionism also clearly standing in the tradition of its time) even to accept it. Doesn't make me a zionist - but it's not a silly claim to make!