Rafah bombings (Edited by Mumsnet)

Yeah I was just thinking that @Newbutoldfather really just needs to say straight where it exactly it is they think Palestinians should 'inhabit'. Although they claim to be unbiased it isn't really coming across in their posts that they see Palestinians as equal to Israelis so it would be great of they could clear that up?

I am asking why there would be an Israel but no Palestine. Only an area inhabited by Palestinians, and I also wonder who would rule this area that Palestinians inhabit?

'The aim, surely, for all civilised people is a prosperous peaceful Israel living next door to prosperous peaceful areas inhabited by Palestinians'

@Newbutoldfather @TextureSeeker Sorry, this quote from newbutoldfather is what I was asking about. Should have been more clear!

💔💔💔
Do Palestinian children matter less than others?
And to think there are people who are cheering on the Rafah bombings

I don't understand your point about questioning the creation of Israel or its original borders, and how this relates to you suggesting there should be an Israel next to areas inhabited by Palestinians (rather than an Israel next to a Palestine.)

You seem to suggest that the original borders should stay in place. Do you mean the '48 borders? Many people think the '67 borders would be more realistic.

The proposed Palestinian state on '67 borders would mean West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. I personally think it's rather unworkable without a way to connect it as a continuous piece of land, but it seems to be the most common proposal. I have not heard of any 2 state proposal that involves taking over part of Israel.

Here's your collateral damage. This links to photos of children lying dead in the rubble of their home that Israel bombed in Rafah.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C6q2GnEK7S1/?igsh=dm9tczd3Y2xiNDU=

I think that poster was questioning Israels right to the West Bank and East Jerusalem. 10% of Israelis are illegal settlers and that is expanding rapidly. That cannot be ignored in the discussion.

Edited to add I find it interesting that again you thought about Israel not Palestine. Straight away you went to Israels borders, Israels rights with seemingly no thought at all to Palestinians.

@stormy4319trevor ,

I don’t think questioning the creation of Israel or its original borders is fair or productive. There was a need for a Jewish state after the Shoah and, like all countries, its borders are man made.

In fact my and the current official definition of antisemitism includes not believing that Israel has a right to exist. Criticising its policies or government is not antisemitic, but trying to throw all the Jews out of Israel or changing its nature as the (only) Jewish state is.

No one expects any other country to change its post WW2 borders.

So a two state solution would allow Palestine autonomy over where it is now, not involve it taking over parts of Israel (and, of course, no one mentions Jordan giving Palestinians territory ever, or the way Jordan has disgracefully treated its Palestinian population).

I have posted about Rafah.
Just one sentence about another war will not derail anything.

There is thread on Sudan where you can discuss the topic. This thread is about Rafah.

@dulra,

I think that there is more chance of a meaningful solution now than for a long time.

It was really close when Arafat rejected the Camp David proposals. No one really knows why he rejected them.

I do think that there is more chance now than for a long time. Hamas made peace impossible. You just can’t make peace with a group who actually believe that ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ is not an antisemitic fraud.

In addition, more pragmatically, Israel need peace. Their military and defence is well built for a war against a limited number of large projectiles. With cheap drones being used, Israel spent a billion dollars to defend against a million dollars of projectiles. Israel needs to isolate Iran, and most of the Arab World are on their side here. They cannot afford militarily or financially to fight on lots of fronts.

Finally, the eyes of the U.S and those who support Israel want to see a fair post war settlement and a two state solution. Israel will entirely isolate itself if it sees any other route forward.

I think the Palestinians need a state with control of their own resources @Newbutoldfather Inhabiting an area which is not their own state does not seem to improve peace and prosperity. You seem to have mentioned an Israel but not a Palestine?

It looks like not, not a mention in the news.
But we do know that there are ethnic troubles, sexual abuse and slavery, lots of people displaced and a large number of deaths. But it very rarely makes it to the press here in UK.

Yes it will.

When a Palestinian state is established and it will prosper.

The aim, surely, for all civilised people is a prosperous peaceful Israel living next door to prosperous peaceful areas inhabited by Palestinians with free move,ent between them, ideally trading with each other and enriching one another. I don’t personally believe Hamas is any part of this equation

Did this exist before Hamas? Is it likely to after Hamas?

I have been sent articles by military historians saying that the IDF is fighting one of the most targeted and merciful wars given the nature of the terrain and enemy (urban theatre and Hamas using civilians as human shields). They cite the ratio of military to civilian dead and compare it to past battles.

Do statistics back this claim up?
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-213

Palestinian fatalities 35,735
>9,500 women
>14,500 children

That leaves about 10,000 men

Israel is claiming in excess of 13,000 Hamas fighters killed.

Normally one would expect 69 - 81% of war fatalities to be male. The indirect effects of war do also kill women but their deaths tend to follow later.

So I uninclined to believe the ratio provided.

Indeed the ratio is the sort of ratio one would expect if a random bomb was dropped on Swindon one night.

Thank you.

@TextureSeeker ,

‘I find your phrasing here interesting, it's something the tabloids seem to do as well. Pro Israel and Anti Israel. Not Pro Palestinian, anti Israel and it's never Pro Palestinian and Anti Palestinian. ‘

Maybe I am showing hidden bias. I don’t think so, but none of us know our subconscious biases.

OTOH, I don’t like the way both sides seem to conflate Palestinians with Hamas to make opposite arguments. On the Israeli side, this becomes it is fine to do anything we like in Gaza as Hamas attacked us. On the other side the argument is that Israel have no right to attack Gaza as the Palestinians are an oppressed minority and thus have no right to go after Hamas in any meaningful way, almost as is October 7th never happened.

The aim, surely, for all civilised people is a prosperous peaceful Israel living next door to prosperous peaceful areas inhabited by Palestinians with free move,ent between them, ideally trading with each other and enriching one another. I don’t personally believe Hamas is any part of this equation.

If this is true, it’s heartbreaking. The only crossing that Palestinians could use to legally flee and cross into Egypt.

Judging by your previous posts I wouldn't expect you to.

www.instagram.com/reel/C6qMWSuIxWB/?igsh=MWN6YWFsd2YycmtseQ==

You do not speak for me and I do not feel goaded by the question about Sudan.

I find your phrasing here interesting, it's something the tabloids seem to do as well. Pro Israel and Anti Israel. Not Pro Palestinian, anti Israel and it's never Pro Palestinian and Anti Palestinian.

Do you think that by choosing the phrasing that you did you are also adding to the polarisation of this debate? I kind of feel like it erases Palestinians completely from it. It becomes all about Israel, not the Palestinian people and their rights and peoples very valid concerns for the Palestinian people.

This a million times. The dehumanisation of Palestinian people like another poster said ‘collateral damage’ is sickening.

I don't swallow IDF lies wholesale, no. Anyone who does, like that guy, isn't worth wasting my time on.