So which party is scuppering the ceasefire?

I don't think we can avoid the fact Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation and they simply can't from an existential point of view change to a party of peace and reconciliation. No one is going to believe that

Do you mean that terrorists can never become parties of peace and rule effectively?

Because they want to sign up to a ceasefire and that's what a ceasefire is.

Of course Hamas want Israel to cease firing permanently. Obviously. Absolutely nobody disoutes that. A permanent ceasefire requires Hamas to also stock attacking Israel in terms of rocket attacks, attacks on civilians etc. Where is the evidence they will?

You're right. I also think the people of Gaza (and Palestinians living elsewhere in the Occupied Territories) deserve to live. That's a view many of the Israeli government and IDF don't share though.

Perhaps if they spent more time working on the good of the country and less time planning how to rape and kill people living in Israel, Gaza might be a better place?

The people of Gaza deserve much better than Hamas have given them. They deserve much, much better governance.

'Clearly Hamas want a permanent ceasefire ' 😂 deluded much. Poor little terrorists, why don't people believe us, we no longer want to rape and kill.

Raging psychos always tell truth of course. I guess they must be losing. They could surrender and release hostages. Hamas need to no longer have any part of Gaza. Netanyahu also needs to go. New governance for both.

@SharonEllis

I don't think we can avoid the fact Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation and they simply can't from an existential point of view change to a party of peace and reconciliation. No one is going to believe that

We therefore I think have both parties engaging in peace talks for international approval rather than a commitment at this point to peace. It would be a lot simpler without Hamas in power.

Even if you do have a ceasfire Israel will still target Hamas leaders as war criminals in much the same way Osama bin Laden was taken out.

Hamas as a governing organisation would be in danger meeting in public due to the threat of an IDA bomb.

I can't believe what I read around here sometimes. Absolutely outrageous. We need to continue the genocide in Gaza to ensure peace for Israelis. So reasonable.

Clearly Hamas want a permanent ceasefire and Israel wants to finish the obliteration of Gaza and tens of thousands of its people. It's not complicated. Both sides are being very forthright.

@mids2019 I think the destruction of Hamas is obviously the only way to achieve peace because they have said they will repeat oct 7th over & over again. Its just a statement of fact that Israel can't have security with Hamas in power. Given the abysmal way Hamas have run Gaza and oppressed the people of Gaza & shown no intetest in their security its also surely a prerequisite for peace & liberty for Gazans too.

@mids2019 does your last paragraph mean you think the preferred course of action should be the planned ground offensive into Rafah?

I think ultimately you have to consider whether Hamas can agree to making term ceasefire as their reason for existence is to strike Israel. It maybe the on going talks are aimed at PR rather than concrete goals as both sides have very much ingrained determination to continue conflict. Israel want Hamas quite rightly destroyed and Hamas aren't a party of peace indeed the opposite.

I think from Hamas perspective they can't look to their people as surrendering i.e. Agreeing to peace as they have lost so much. Without funding for regeneration how popular will Hamas be if they release all remaining hostages even if Israel does withdraw across the border?.Hamas can't exactly claim a victory for its people especially if it is neutered by preventions of rearming. If Hamas agree to peace I think internally it would split as there would be literally no where to go. There may be an element of the suicide fighter set into Hamas psychology where they are willing to go down in a blaze of glory taking everyone with them; we have to realise most Hamas fighters are designed to death when engaging with a much superior army.

From Israel's perspective without a change in government Benjamin Netanyahu will wish to complete what he vowed to i.e. destroy Hamas in Rafah but he must be seen to engage in talks to see if a peace can be gained prior to this.

Ironically I think the destruction of Hamas may the only way in reality for a sustainable peace to occur no matter our strength of feeling. If Hamas eventually can't sustain power then new representatives from the Palestinian people may make headway with Israel.

administrative detention is entirely legal under international law in the sort of circumstances that Israel finds itself in after oct 7

Isn’t it the case that there are many prisoners held by Israel from well before Oct 7?

And as I ever I need to remind you that the hostages are entirely innocent civilians. No grey areas.

Aren’t some of the hostages soldiers?

The ceasefire in place on 6 October. There are always skirmishes, regular rocket fire from Hamas and Hezbollah, stabbings etc that don't lead to all out war. As I think you know!

Which ceasefire is this @SharonEllis ?

Was there one put in place after this news report?

MIDDLE EAST
Israel strikes Gaza for the third straight day as West Bank violence escalates
UPDATED SEPTEMBER 24, 20232:18 PM ET
By
The Associated Press

So you do understand that other parties are part of the negotiation?! Good. And Hamas has said they will repeat Oct 7th again and again & Iran their backers have declared their intention to destroy Israel. Hence Israel's determination to destroy Hamas. Any negotiation in any conflict has the next phase of negotiations in mind - its an ongoing process in a conflict as deep seated as this one. One round lays the foundation for the next round (this is very basic stuff that any negotiator knows). History tells us that every single ceasefire in this region ends up being broken. Usually by anti-Israel forces and of course October7th was Hamas breaking a ceasefire, which seems to be repeatedly forgotten.

Quatar are mediating the negotiations. Yes going forward Hamas need to be removed but the current negotiations are for a ceasefire and hostage release this needs to happen urgently to save both Israeli and Palestinian lives.
Who governs in Israel and Gaza is for another day once ceasefire and hostage release is secured
How long the ceasefire lasts is questionable considering Netanyahu has already said they'll have a ground offensive in Rafah regardless

Well other brokers, such as Qatar are and will have to be involved in the negotiations specifically relating to the release of hostages because Hamas relies on external support for their survival. After & beyond that Hamas needs to be cut out of the process as quickly as possible. As anyone who actually cares about the Palestinians thinks. They have no legitimacy. Israel is complicated because the nature of their electoral system throws up situations which give coalition partners disproportionate power & when a country is under attack people do tend to coalesce around the existing government but we know Netanyahu is not popular and what usually happens in a democracy such as this is that someone with a vision for the next step comes forward. We have to hope thats the case and more importantly support Israel to move to that stage.

Well, if a democratically elected government is no longer acting in the interests of citizens, or if elected representatives have lost confidence in that government, there are usually processes that can be used to remove that government from power, such as votes of no confidence.

Presumably that's an option open to citizens and elected representatives in Israel, if the government is considered to no longer be fit to govern.

People in Gaza have no such options.

Are suggesting that the Israeli government is removed? and if so by whom?

And if that government is no longer fit for purpose due to its actions and inactions, presumably there are mechanisms which could be used to remove it and prevent it going further down a path which goes against the will of the electorate.

Mechanisms which have not been used thus far.

People in Gaza have no such options. Are you seriously suggesting that a starving, traumatised and displaced civilian population with no resources is feasibly going to overpower a military force, while rescuing and safeguarding hostages taken by that force, then rescue any hostages remaining elsewhere, then form a viable leadership and negotiating team, all while continuing to be bombed, shot and starved?

Pretty much nobody likes Hamas. But negotiating with them is realistically the only way to achieve a ceasefire and safe return of hostages. Sometimes you have to sit down and negotiate, because the alternative is worse.

Personally I don't see s ceasefire happening with so few hostages being released. We need ALL the people taken by Hamas to Gaza to be released NOW. The number is between 100 and 130 I believe.

Israel is a democracy so the government is legitimate - as in the Uk not everyone will agree with the government, nevertheless they are legitimate.

We are always told that Israelis don't support the facist, racist government that they have, so surely the same applies there too? Do you think Netanyahu is the voice of Israelis? A ceasefire needs to have been done months ago, there isn't time to find the voice of Israelis or Palestinians.