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Conflict in the Middle East

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How have we come to a state where the police confront someone for being overtly Jewish?

645 replies

mids2019 · 20/04/2024 18:39

Just how?

I think at best this inept policing at worst vile anti semitism.

I suppose it is now in the open that central London has become effectively a no go area for Jews given the potential for abuse from hate marchers.

Can't we just stop these marches so Jews can go about their business?

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noblegiraffe · 26/04/2024 14:55

That seems to be attacking her decision to have an interview, and doesn’t disagree with the technical correction.

TextureSeeker · 26/04/2024 14:53

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:34

Right so you think it's best that everybody stays quiet because you don't trust any respected organisations?

Where have I said that "everybody" should "stay quiet". I think the anti-Semites should stay quiet, with whatever encouragement from the police and courts is necessary.

With all respect that sounds like a 'you problem', not something you should have any expectation of anybody else following.

Right, because I'm alone in having noticed problems with anti-semitism and overly-tactful denialism in any of the institutions I listed? Did you miss the Momemtum/Corbynite issues and the correction? The silence about the NYE sex attacks in Germany? Etc.

Most of us believe that independent reviews by UN raconteurs and independent judges play really important roles in truth and justice. Without them what do we have, the word of repulsive people like Netanyahu and Putin?

It's like trying to have a nuanced debate with a sledgehammer, it really is.

I did miss the momentum/corbynite issue, I'm not British nor living in the UK, I presume its some British thing? Nor am I looking to Momentum or Corbynite to speak to genocide, nor was I talking about sex attacks in germany that are completely unrelated to the issue at hand. I was talking about the UN independent raconteurs report and the ICJ.

And yes I thought you did imply that people should stay quiet on attempted genocide, I'm glad to be mistaken and that you have no problem with people highlighting the very real concerns Smile

I'm going to ignore your attempts to insult me, I don't think it helps anyone's argument to stoop to that level.

BelleHathor · 26/04/2024 14:51

Another perspective on the interview that former ICJ Judge Donoghue gave to the BBCs Hardtalk show.

There’s a concerted online effort to misrepresent what Donoghue said as dismissing a plausible case of genocide, where it's much more nuanced as this War Studies lecturer ftom King's explains:

https://x.com/Alonso_GD/status/1783782870877712427

https://x.com/Alonso_GD/status/1783782870877712427

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:45

Bear with me @hopeandfaith11 I have to scroll back through the thread to see exactly whose use of the term "genocide" I was picking up on and replying to, because @Dulra in his/her wisdom has decided to publish the fiction that I raised the issue of genocide myself.

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:41

So to you it's just rhetoric because you don't trust the ICJ, but do you trust Israel's account of things?

I'll never fully trust a Netenyahu government, no. But anti-semitism isn't targeted at Netenyahu supporters. It's targeted at Jews. Gideon F wasn't advised by the police on being "openly a Netenyahu supporter".

hopeandfaith11 · 26/04/2024 14:37

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:36

Now now you're the one that brought up genocide on this thread and posters were merely highlighting how it was more than just unhelpful rhetoric which you implied

I most certainly did not.

I was replying to somebody else who casually referred to the "genocide".

So you don't think what's going on in Gaza is a genocide?

hopeandfaith11 · 26/04/2024 14:37

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:35

I've taken it out of your own post, toward the end of your 2nd paragraph.

Can you send independent verified evidence for these please.
As the claims have been disproven.

Of which? The rapes? Or the burning of babies?

Both. But the burning babies more importantly.

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:36

Now now you're the one that brought up genocide on this thread and posters were merely highlighting how it was more than just unhelpful rhetoric which you implied

I most certainly did not.

I was replying to somebody else who casually referred to the "genocide".

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:35

I've taken it out of your own post, toward the end of your 2nd paragraph.

Can you send independent verified evidence for these please.
As the claims have been disproven.

Of which? The rapes? Or the burning of babies?

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:34

Right so you think it's best that everybody stays quiet because you don't trust any respected organisations?

Where have I said that "everybody" should "stay quiet". I think the anti-Semites should stay quiet, with whatever encouragement from the police and courts is necessary.

With all respect that sounds like a 'you problem', not something you should have any expectation of anybody else following.

Right, because I'm alone in having noticed problems with anti-semitism and overly-tactful denialism in any of the institutions I listed? Did you miss the Momemtum/Corbynite issues and the correction? The silence about the NYE sex attacks in Germany? Etc.

Most of us believe that independent reviews by UN raconteurs and independent judges play really important roles in truth and justice. Without them what do we have, the word of repulsive people like Netanyahu and Putin?

It's like trying to have a nuanced debate with a sledgehammer, it really is.

hopeandfaith11 · 26/04/2024 14:34

This reply has been deleted

Quotes a deleted post - withdrawn by MNHQ

I've taken it out of your own post, toward the end of your 2nd paragraph.

Can you send independent verified evidence for these please.
As the claims have been disproven.

Dulra · 26/04/2024 14:32

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:26

Now now. Clearly rightthink is to jump the gun and call it genocide until ruled otherwise.

Now now you're the one that brought up genocide on this thread and posters were merely highlighting how it was more than just unhelpful rhetoric which you implied

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:30

This reply has been withdrawn

Quotes a deleted post - withdrawn by MNHQ

hopeandfaith11 · 26/04/2024 14:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:26

noblegiraffe · 26/04/2024 14:20

Talking about the ICJ, apparently people have been misinterpreting their judgement so here is the President of the ICJ clarifying that they didn’t rule the claim of genocide as plausible. It came up on my Twitter feed yesterday and may be of interest.

https://x.com/mr_andrew_fox/status/1783621258032136550?s=46&t=vKGM6xpoeW3wdlaVVVagQA

Now now. Clearly rightthink is to jump the gun and call it genocide until ruled otherwise.

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 14:22

I think considering the current conflict in isolation from the Oct 7th attacks (or vice versa) is wrongheaded and unhelpful.
What has that got to do with a case investigating genocide? Israel will be found guilty or not guilty based on evidence not what may have happened before. "They made me do it" is not a defence.

I think your "they made me do it" is their "we are fighting for our existence", and I think the key to solving it all is understanding that properly. (I wonder what Anglo-Welsh relations would currently be if large numbers of either side had rushed over the border 6 months ago, into small towns, raping, burning babies, murdering and kidnapping?)

The big problem, however, is that Hamas are selling their own people down the river and using them as canon fodder while enriching themselves. That is not a conversation that is really happening.

hopeandfaith11 · 26/04/2024 14:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

noblegiraffe · 26/04/2024 14:20

Talking about the ICJ, apparently people have been misinterpreting their judgement so here is the President of the ICJ clarifying that they didn’t rule the claim of genocide as plausible. It came up on my Twitter feed yesterday and may be of interest.

https://x.com/mr_andrew_fox/status/1783621258032136550?s=46&t=vKGM6xpoeW3wdlaVVVagQA

https://x.com/mr_andrew_fox/status/1783621258032136550?s=46&t=vKGM6xpoeW3wdlaVVVagQA

TextureSeeker · 26/04/2024 14:19

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 13:54

Can you explain why you feel that way? Do you usually dismiss the ICJ and human rights experts as 'rhetoric' or do you like many others just make exceptions for this case?

The time when I blindly trusted the UN, the ICJ, the British Labour Party or even the Guardian to be coming to the right conclusions is a long way past.

It's not comfortable but sadly it's the case.

Right so you think it's best that everybody stays quiet because you don't trust any respected organisations? With all respect that sounds like a 'you problem', not something you should have any expectation of anybody else following. Most of us believe that independent reviews by UN raconteurs and independent judges play really important roles in truth and justice. Without them what do we have, the word of repulsive people like Netanyahu and Putin?

Dulra · 26/04/2024 14:07

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 13:57

also think dismissing a legitimate case for genocide brought to the ICJ who has concluded there are enough grounds to make a case as "rhetoric" will also not help

I think considering the current conflict in isolation from the Oct 7th attacks (or vice versa) is wrongheaded and unhelpful.

Considering both in tandem, being as even handed as possible, doesn't bring any east answers, but being partisan will never solve the situation conclusively.

FWIW, I still personally think that a two state solution remains the only viable way out of this, but we are a long way from that now.

There are no easy answers.

I think considering the current conflict in isolation from the Oct 7th attacks (or vice versa) is wrongheaded and unhelpful.
What has that got to do with a case investigating genocide? Israel will be found guilty or not guilty based on evidence not what may have happened before. "They made me do it" is not a defence.

25milesfromhome · 26/04/2024 14:05

Kendodd · 26/04/2024 13:52

Well that they should not be mentioned is definitely the impression I am getting. Not just from you, by other posters criticising my post asking that the other victims (that, I've found a great many people had no idea existed) also be mentioned.

As I've already told you, the impression you're getting is wrong and insulting so you can stop repeating it. I criticised your post because it mischaracterises and universalises the Holocaust, not because it mentions non-Jewish victims of the Nazis, whom I also mentioned repeatedly in my post. Maybe your Holocaust education and those of the great many people you know who also have no idea about it has been woefully insufficient, I don't know. ETA the fact that you seem to believe that all of the victims died in the camps would seem to suggest it has been.

Dulra · 26/04/2024 14:05

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 13:54

Can you explain why you feel that way? Do you usually dismiss the ICJ and human rights experts as 'rhetoric' or do you like many others just make exceptions for this case?

The time when I blindly trusted the UN, the ICJ, the British Labour Party or even the Guardian to be coming to the right conclusions is a long way past.

It's not comfortable but sadly it's the case.

Ok....

So to you it's just rhetoric because you don't trust the ICJ, but do you trust Israel's account of things?

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 13:57

also think dismissing a legitimate case for genocide brought to the ICJ who has concluded there are enough grounds to make a case as "rhetoric" will also not help

I think considering the current conflict in isolation from the Oct 7th attacks (or vice versa) is wrongheaded and unhelpful.

Considering both in tandem, being as even handed as possible, doesn't bring any east answers, but being partisan will never solve the situation conclusively.

FWIW, I still personally think that a two state solution remains the only viable way out of this, but we are a long way from that now.

There are no easy answers.

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 13:54

Can you explain why you feel that way? Do you usually dismiss the ICJ and human rights experts as 'rhetoric' or do you like many others just make exceptions for this case?

The time when I blindly trusted the UN, the ICJ, the British Labour Party or even the Guardian to be coming to the right conclusions is a long way past.

It's not comfortable but sadly it's the case.

Kendodd · 26/04/2024 13:52

25milesfromhome · 26/04/2024 13:43

@Kendodd Not at all and that's a somewhat insulting interpretation of my post. It's not a competition. I'm literally talking about the non-Jewish victims and how they were also killed in huge numbers in my post so clearly I'm not saying they shouldn't be mentioned.

Well that they should not be mentioned is definitely the impression I am getting. Not just from you, by other posters criticising my post asking that the other victims (that, I've found a great many people had no idea existed) also be mentioned.

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