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Conflict in the Middle East
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Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 07:33

@Dulra Let's look back and see how the situation came about and whose land it actually is.
In May 1948, the Jordan’s Arab Legion overran the eastern part of Jerusalem and occupied the Old City and its Holy Places. Following the 1948 War, Jordan continued to occupy East Jerusalem and what is now commonly referred to as the West Bank. This included the area the UN partition decision had allotted for an Arab state.Rather than seek independence for a Palestinian state, the Arabs from the area allotted for an Arab state in the UN partition resolution agreed to the unification of Palestine with Jordan and swore fealty to the king at the Jericho Conference on December 1, 1948.On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted the following resolution annexing the West Bank and Jerusalem:
"Approval is granted to complete unity between the two banks of the Jordan, the Eastern and Western, and their amalgamation in one single state: The Hashemite Kingdom of the Jordan, under the crown of his Hashemite Majesty King Abdullah ben el-Husein the exalted."

King Abdullah acted over the objections of the Arab League.
Great Britain and Pakistan were the only countries that recognized Jordan’s annexation and occupation.
Two-thirds or more of King Abdullah’s subjects in the new combined Kingdom were Palestinians and one-third, or slightly less, native Jordanians. The total population was estimated at between 1 and 1.2 million, comprised of roughly one-third Palestinians resident in their own homes West of the Jordan River, one-third Jordanians and one-third refugees from parts of Palestine that are now within Israel. According to Jordan’s website, “All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it.”

During the nineteen years of Jordanian administration, Jordan refused to honor its undertaking in the armistice agreement to accord free access to the Holy Places and to cultural institutions, and use of the Jewish cemetery on The Mount of Olives (Section III, Document 6, Article VIII, and Section V, subsection E, Documents 15 and 16). Jews were barred from the Old City and denied access to the Western Wall and other Holy Places. The Jewish Quarter in the Old City was destroyed; fifty-eight synagogues were also destroyed or desecrated. Thousands of tombstones in the Jewish cemetery on The Mount of Olives were destroyed to pave a road and build fences and latrines in Jordanian army camps.

During the Jordanian occupation, Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

After Israel reunified Jerusalem and captured the West Bank in the Six-Day War, King Hussein still insisted, “The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.”

According to analysts who support Israeli settlements, the presence of hostile, armed forces on the high ground of the West Bank would pose a security risk to the narrow Israeli land between the West Bank and the Mediterranean coast, which contains some of the country's biggest strategic assets, including Ben Gurion airport, the largest electric power station, and highly-populated cities.

Over half of the Israeli public believes settlements reinforce Israel's security.

Factsareimportantplease · 19/05/2024 05:56

Tripeandonions · 18/05/2024 10:26

@ScrollingLeaves Where there has been a whole court case brought against Israel with numerous lawyers arguing about whether or not what is happening to Gazans is genocide, or whether or not there is a risk of genocide, there is evidently no absolute clarity that there is no possibility of genocide taking place, let alone a reason to impute that a poster who thinks there is this possibility, is repeating a lie.

I would disagree with this.

If this was a 'lower' British Court SA would be possibly regarded as a "Vexous Litigant".

IMO SA wants the ICJ to micromanage the Gaza issue.

I would go as far as to say that IMO SA is military ally of Hamas and therefore has an ulterior motive.
Just look at the timing.
On 11 may 2024 just after SA had submitted another request for more constraints on Israel they hosted a delegation from Hamas.

I don't know what was discussed but it seems obvious to me that SA is aligning itself with a terrorist organisation

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/05/israel-accuses-south-africa-aligning-hamas-distorting-facts-icj-case

Hosting Hamas.

Dulra · 19/05/2024 00:03

Scirocco · 18/05/2024 23:20

42% of their own territory has "varying degrees" of autonomy. Wow, how lucky they are to only have 58% of their territory fully under occupation due to having some degree of say in some things that happen in the other 42%.

Do you know what happens to a Palestinian who interferes with "apparent lawlessness" like this? They get shot and/or arrested. By 'settlers' or the IDF, who sometimes stand by and let this sort of thing happen, and sometimes get involved in facilitating it.

42% of their own territory has "varying degrees" of autonomy. Wow, how lucky they are to only have 58% of their territory fully under occupation due to having some degree of say in some things that happen in the other 42%.

Yeah exactly. I couldn't name any other jurisdiction that would accept this. In northern Ireland there was massive resistance to the British army patrolling the streets. Kids out throwing petrol bombs at tanks but they weren't killed or murdered. Things weren't perfect the army were cruel but they demonstrated an element of restraint which escapes the IDF

Scirocco · 18/05/2024 23:20

Tripeandonions · 18/05/2024 19:03

Presently, most of the West Bank is administered by Israel though 42% of it is under varying degrees of autonomous rule by the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority.

So what is the Palestinian Authority doing about this apparent lawlessness.?

42% of their own territory has "varying degrees" of autonomy. Wow, how lucky they are to only have 58% of their territory fully under occupation due to having some degree of say in some things that happen in the other 42%.

Do you know what happens to a Palestinian who interferes with "apparent lawlessness" like this? They get shot and/or arrested. By 'settlers' or the IDF, who sometimes stand by and let this sort of thing happen, and sometimes get involved in facilitating it.

PeasfullPerson · 18/05/2024 21:08

Gunnersforthecup · 18/05/2024 20:54

@PeasfullPerson Actually, I was more surprised that there were not earlier reports of vengeful fury more directly informing the behaviour of the Israelis. So surprised the other way than you seem to have been.

It is pretty easy to imagine that ,going to war after an extraordinary outrage in which over 1000 people died, actual soldiers might be angry, even if one has never been in an army, or committed violence oneself.

I was surprised by the level of indiscriminate killing and destruction to infrastructure, which to me was an obvious sign of vengeful fury. I dread to think of all the things that have happened under a blanket of war, and the black outs. I was also surprised by October 7th.
Even though I have very little faith in humanity and can see that both states are suffering from generations of trauma, I seem to hope for better, and remain shocked by acts of depravity.
It’s interesting how people have different perspectives.

DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:57

Palestinian teacher Sabreen Msarwi who holds Israeli citizenship went on a march to commemorate the Nakba Day. Students chanted peacefully “May your village burn down.”
Give it time, they will burn it down or
bomb it.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Hz4ATtd-j/?igsh=MWI0bjF5ZTNvZ3V3NA==

Based on some posters views, those poor students- they know someone impacted from the October attacks.
This teacher provoked them by attending a march that marks the occupation of Palestinian lands.
Israel is the greatest democracy in the Middle East - these kids have freedom of speech.
What about those hateful and naive university protestors in Europe and around the world - they can say what they want like calling for a seize fire why can’t these students use their freedoms to say whatever they want….

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Hz4ATtd-j/?igsh=MWI0bjF5ZTNvZ3V3NA==

Gunnersforthecup · 18/05/2024 20:54

PeasfullPerson · 18/05/2024 20:37

I think it’s possible to be shocked by both things. That doesn’t mean one is equal to the other in how disturbing it is. But for people who can’t imagine doing either of these things, then both are shocking. It doesn’t mean they are ignorant to the events of October 7th.

@PeasfullPerson Actually, I was more surprised that there were not earlier reports of vengeful fury more directly informing the behaviour of the Israelis. So surprised the other way than you seem to have been.

It is pretty easy to imagine that ,going to war after an extraordinary outrage in which over 1000 people died, actual soldiers might be angry, even if one has never been in an army, or committed violence oneself.

DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:47

Dulra · 18/05/2024 20:42

The clip I saw was in Israel? Was there another clip linked to Ireland

Sorry, here is the clip
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4p8FJjAjtC/?igsh=MW0xa2MxNXVuZnd0Yg==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4p8FJjAjtC/?igsh=MW0xa2MxNXVuZnd0Yg==

Dulra · 18/05/2024 20:42

DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:24

Lovely to see common sense from
the Irish: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C38NoCXNpsZ/?igsh=a2tsNjJlc200ZTYw

Again let’s preempt some posters views:
Ireland wasn’t occupied
The British were great in Ireland
The Irish caused problems
Why is he saying illegal occupation
Why’s he not mentioning Hamas
Why’s he not mentioning October
Why can’t people see the benefits of colonialism

The clip I saw was in Israel? Was there another clip linked to Ireland

PeasfullPerson · 18/05/2024 20:37

Gunnersforthecup · 18/05/2024 20:25

"It tried to match numbers with depravity".

It is notable that the 7th October attack is likely to have been staged to disrupt the formation of peaceful relations between Israel and neighbours such as Saudi Arabia.

I believe the full intention of Hamas was to plunge the region into war.

I think if anything that the hope of Hamas was that Israel would respond with ferocity and in kind. I was afraid there would be escalations of violence, possibly on both sides.

I note that there are videos posted of IDF soldiers playing with children's toys and breaking china etc. That does sound improper, but presumably people shocked by this have not read the accounts of what happened on October 7.

I think it’s possible to be shocked by both things. That doesn’t mean one is equal to the other in how disturbing it is. But for people who can’t imagine doing either of these things, then both are shocking. It doesn’t mean they are ignorant to the events of October 7th.

Gunnersforthecup · 18/05/2024 20:32

Dulra · 18/05/2024 11:26

I am aware of what the burden of proof means and I am aware that this case will roll on for years but there are other countries intervening so it is not just SA vs Israel. Whatever you think about SA and their motives is slightly irrelevant, there's a case to prove or there's not.

Irish governments statement on it.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4e9a7-statement-by-the-tanaiste-on-the-south-africa-vs-israel-case-at-the-international-court-of-justice/

Edited

"“It is for the Court to determine whether genocide is being committed"

PeasfullPerson · 18/05/2024 20:30

EasterIssland · 18/05/2024 19:24

Israeli social media influencers opinion

He thinks these hideous thoughts are ones he should share with the world. Says a lot. Please update us on whether any action is taken against him….

Gunnersforthecup · 18/05/2024 20:25

Kindatired · 18/05/2024 10:14

Terrorist rarely achieve their own objectives and they generally aim to disrupt the status quo. If you live in Israel, you will know someone directly affected by the 7/10 attacks and it will impact on you very strongly. But the actual number of deaths is actually a fraction of the 6,000 deaths inflicted on the Palestinians since 2007. These numbers pale in comparison to the numbers involved in other current active conflicts- Yemen, Sudan. Hamas would struggle to kill 7000 Israelis so it clearly decided to match numbers with depravity. It was definitely calculated to be shocking.

Israel has resisted the implementation of the Oslo accords. There have been no meaningful concessions in relation to self determination, demilitarisation or boundaries. Left wing Israelis sat in pavement cafes, protected by the US Iron dome and other defence systems patting themselves on the back for their charitable activities ( dictated by their religion anyway) and open mindedness. They congratulated themselves on being the only democracy in the Middle East and celebrated how happy Israeli Arabs were as if the alternative was not being governed by a terrorist death cult.Meanwhile, their right wing government actively promoted the Hamas administration in the ensuing vacuum.

This vacuum was not sustainable, something was probably going to give. The most difficult thing to accept is that any peace partner will have hands tainted with the blood of the 7/10 victims. It is awful but it’s what’s happened in Northern Ireland, South Africa and Rwanda.

"It tried to match numbers with depravity".

It is notable that the 7th October attack is likely to have been staged to disrupt the formation of peaceful relations between Israel and neighbours such as Saudi Arabia.

I believe the full intention of Hamas was to plunge the region into war.

I think if anything that the hope of Hamas was that Israel would respond with ferocity and in kind. I was afraid there would be escalations of violence, possibly on both sides.

I note that there are videos posted of IDF soldiers playing with children's toys and breaking china etc. That does sound improper, but presumably people shocked by this have not read the accounts of what happened on October 7.

DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:24

Lovely to see common sense from
the Irish: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C38NoCXNpsZ/?igsh=a2tsNjJlc200ZTYw

Again let’s preempt some posters views:
Ireland wasn’t occupied
The British were great in Ireland
The Irish caused problems
Why is he saying illegal occupation
Why’s he not mentioning Hamas
Why’s he not mentioning October
Why can’t people see the benefits of colonialism

DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:20

Good to see protests in Israel wanting peace like the protests in London and the protests across the world in universities
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C38NoCXNpsZ/?igsh=a2tsNjJlc200ZTYw

Once again let’s preempt some posters comments:
These Jews aren’t real jews
These Jews are antisemitic
It is not an occupation
This protester hasn’t mentioned Hamas
This protester hasn’t mentioned October
Why is he mentioning Israel and Palestine with the words peace and security together

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C38NoCXNpsZ/?igsh=a2tsNjJlc200ZTYw

DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:14

EasterIssland · 18/05/2024 19:24

Israeli social media influencers opinion

I can just imagine some of the posters on this threat responding to this….

“Why don’t the Palestinians just leave? Their presence is making the Israeli’s attack them - if they just disappeared of the face of the earth there would be no attacks and threats.”

Shame on those Palestinians, they dare exist on their own land - I mean the cheek of them!

DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:12

Tripeandonions · 18/05/2024 19:03

Presently, most of the West Bank is administered by Israel though 42% of it is under varying degrees of autonomous rule by the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority.

So what is the Palestinian Authority doing about this apparent lawlessness.?

Apparent lawlessness, bless your.

Wowsy for your victim blaming.

EasterIssland · 18/05/2024 19:26

Tripeandonions · 18/05/2024 19:03

Presently, most of the West Bank is administered by Israel though 42% of it is under varying degrees of autonomous rule by the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority.

So what is the Palestinian Authority doing about this apparent lawlessness.?

idf are present at the time of this happening as it can be seen on the video. Shouldn’t they help the person that is being attacked ? When they want they do get involved… why not when the driver was being punched and kicked ?

EasterIssland · 18/05/2024 19:24

Israeli social media influencers opinion

This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 3)
Tripeandonions · 18/05/2024 19:03

anotherlevel · 18/05/2024 15:32

A mob of Israeli settlers attacked a Palestinian truck driver in the occupied West Bank assuming he was delivering aid to Gaza. They beat him and destroyed the cargo.

Despicable behaviour.

www.instagram.com/reel/C7C0d_CR3oN/?igsh=MWJ5aXhucnJ2OWw5eA==

Presently, most of the West Bank is administered by Israel though 42% of it is under varying degrees of autonomous rule by the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority.

So what is the Palestinian Authority doing about this apparent lawlessness.?

EasterIssland · 18/05/2024 17:38

More videos of what idf have been doing in gaza recorded and posted by themselves

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1791770589985640847

x.com

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1791770589985640847

anotherlevel · 18/05/2024 15:32

A mob of Israeli settlers attacked a Palestinian truck driver in the occupied West Bank assuming he was delivering aid to Gaza. They beat him and destroyed the cargo.

Despicable behaviour.

www.instagram.com/reel/C7C0d_CR3oN/?igsh=MWJ5aXhucnJ2OWw5eA==

Dulra · 18/05/2024 11:26

I am aware of what the burden of proof means and I am aware that this case will roll on for years but there are other countries intervening so it is not just SA vs Israel. Whatever you think about SA and their motives is slightly irrelevant, there's a case to prove or there's not.

Irish governments statement on it.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4e9a7-statement-by-the-tanaiste-on-the-south-africa-vs-israel-case-at-the-international-court-of-justice/

Statement by the Tánaiste on the South Africa vs Israel case at the International Court of Justice

Israel, oPt, ICJ

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/4e9a7-statement-by-the-tanaiste-on-the-south-africa-vs-israel-case-at-the-international-court-of-justice