This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 3)

@Gunnersforthecup by your logic (that all Israel’s war crimes are justified as it’s a war), everything Hamas did on October 7th was also justified as it was already a war.

To be clear, this is not what I believe, but this is the logical conclusion of what you are saying.

Israeli massacre of Tantura
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7Xf1ADtrNL/?igsh=djZ3Y2c0cnhkNHAx

Hope someone sends that to the ICJ

The massacre in Radha was seen by some Israelis as the best way of celebrating a religious festival.

Sorry, whoever else it was's hypothetical scenario.

I'm not Israeli or Jewish myself, by the way.

Pink washing:

Thousands of LGBTQ+ Americans are denouncing Israel’s military offense in Gaza as an act of genocide and calling for a permanent cease-fire by signing online petitions, sending email campaigns and protesting at events in Washington and New York. They want national organizations that mobilize on LGBTQ+ civil rights to do the same — but so far, these organizations have not taken a clear public stance.
Queer advocates calling for a cease-fire say LGBTQ+ groups have a responsibility to denounce the use of “pinkwashing,” or what they allege as the Israeli government’s attempts to hide human rights violations behind a purportedly pro-LGBTQ+ image.

https://19thnews.org/2024/03/lgbtq-americans-gaza-israel-protests/

No, it just meant that I didn't pick up on that detail of your hypothetical scenario.

It is a war and, in wars, people (including civilians and children) get killed, even though that is not alright and, indeed downright tragic.

Important not to start wars, really, especially with someone with more weapons than you.

However, I think Hamas (or whoever they planned this with) did everything they could to elicit the maximum response from the Israelis. Every civilian death is then a martyr for their cause.

And a peaceful resolution does indeed appear to get further and further away.

Does that mean your response to whether or not it's alright to kill children changes depending on whether you're being asked about Israeli children or Palestinian children?

So if it’s not ok to kill Israeli children (which it’s not) , how are you ok with Palestinian children being killed?

“... if we adopt the principle of universality: if an action is right (or wrong) for others, it is right (or wrong) for us. Those who do not rise to the minimal moral level of applying to themselves the standards they apply to others more stringent ones, in fact plainly cannot be taken seriously when they speak of appropriateness of response; or of right and wrong, good and evil” Chomsky

So this is from just over a month ago Harvard, for the US)

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/

"More than 70 percent of respondents said Israel should move forward with the operation [in Rafah], including 57 percent of those 18 to 24 and increasing percentages with each older age group.

Pollsters noted how the framing of a question matters, as 70 percent said they support a permanent cease-fire in Gaza, but 68 percent said they would oppose one if that meant Hamas could continue to hold hostages and run Gaza."

It's all in the detail, isn't it.

I didn't pick up that they were meant to be Israeli children sorry, reading it the first time.

Of course it is not alright to kill children.

However, if you knew that, if the Hamas people escaped, they would immediately proceed to detonate a nuclear bomb on Tel Aviv, you might consider that you would have to act? To save more lives?

And no, there isn't a yes or no answer for that question.

@Gunnersforthecup you did completely answer, but I get the impression that you don’t think it would be ok to kill lots of innocent israeli children? Can you give a definite “yes” or “no” please?

Netanyahu could also come out with his hands up to the icc, but that doesn’t seem to be happening 🤔

I wouldn't "vilify" student protests.

But I think that there may be a number of misguided young people on them; and that damaging university property and/or assaulting staff is quite wrong.

The fashion for covering faces means that some protestors may not even be students of that University.

Regarding being misguided, the liberal values that allow for these protests would probably not be supported by a state run by Hamas or Iran.

Queers for Palestine would have difficulty openly identifying as queer and women would have their rights curtailed.

Stopping the war would be great if the underlying danger of further terrorist attacks were dealt with, and it was clear that the state of Israel could survive. October 7th was perceived as an existential threat and I can see why.

It would be great if Israel could get itself some moderate leadership, also.

Thanks for those recent polls @DomPom47

After narrowly backing Israel’s military action in Gaza in November, Americans now oppose the campaign by a solid margin. Fifty-five percent currently disapprove of Israel’s actions, while 36% approve.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx#:~:text=Seventy%2Dfour%20percent%20of%20U.S.,the%20situation%20“very%20closely.”

Desire for a ceasefire remains high here in Britain: 69% say they think Israel should stop and call a ceasefire at the current time, about the same as the 66% who said so in February.
By contrast, only 13% think Israel should continue to take military action – a figure unchanged from three months ago.

Most Britons (56%) would support the UK ending the sale of arms to Israel for the duration of the conflict in Gaza. Only 20% would oppose this move – these figures are both about the same as they were when we first asked at the beginning of April

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49366-british-attitudes-to-the-israel-gaza-conflict-may-2024-update

Hamas is the not the Palestinian people and this fascist Israeli government do not represent moderate Israelis. Their is an issue with the Israeli population where the younger you go the more hardline and right wing they are. It is not in Israel’s interest to actively negotiate as it is clear with this fascist current government that they want as much land as possible. As the US and UK is going against any international pressure be that the courts or the university protests or celebrities it is clear that peace is a long long away. There is a strong Israeli lobby in the US who are anti peace and anti a two state solution and again this means peace is a long long aT away.

Both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to exist. Have the right to security and self determination. In no shape way or form was the actions that took place on October okay. Hamas’ actions were evil and heinous. It did not however represent the Palestinian people and did not help the peace process. From the Israeli side annexing a group of people and treating them like crap and killing them indiscriminately does not help the peace process. Creating conditions where they starve to death does not help the peace process. Bombing buildings that are schools and schools and refugee camps to get to Hamas tunnels deep underground does not help the peace process. Vilifying student protests that call for peace and a ceasefire does not help the peace process.

Also, in polls in the UK and US, only a very small minority are in support of Hamas.

Most people, I think would like the war to end. But it is a question of how that can be achieved.

Certainly the UK and US do not want Hamas freely conducting raids on Israel like October 7th. Or do you think that this should be tolerated?

If not, what should happen then, if Israel stops fighting?

The Israeli people undoubtedly want the hostages back.

You have hundreds of Palestinian children in Israeli military courts - the only children in the world to face military courts. Treated in horrible ways in these prisons. This is all okay because Israel is a democracy and they freely elected their corrupt fascist leaders.

Before October you had on average one Palestinian child murdered a week - again totally fine because Israel has a right to defend itself and these children were all terrorists or terrorists sympathisers.

Anyone who attributes the current state of affairs to simply Hamas and October 2023 events - I guess ignorance is bliss and good on you for having that tunnel vision of your beliefs. To think that Netanyahu and his fascist cabinet want those hostages back is ridiculous. To think that they want peace (before October and after October) is ridiculous. Most people in the world know this. Just a shame that the world is not fair and this genocide practising Israeli government has the US and UK backing it otherwise there would have been a fair political solution a long long time ago.

It is not ok.

war is never ok and innocent people always get killed.

Hamas should not have started this war.

Bit unreasonable to say that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a psychopath (I haven't clicked your link as I very much suspect it wouldn't help in the discussion, pictures of injured people generally don't)

Ordinarily, of course not,

In a war? You would try to find another way, as far as possible.

I have been reading about the second world war, there have been many times when very difficult decisions had to be taken, weighing up potential loss of life if the easier option was followed.

There was a very intense debate about whether it was acceptable to use planes to bomb civilian areas, when technology first made this possble, reluctantly it was decided that this was necessary.

Of course, the Hamas fighters could always come out of the nursery with their hands up, which would be the best solution.

“Israel will not stop this madness until WE make it stop.”

“Israel must face sanctions, justice, arms embargo, suspension of agreements, trade, partnership and investments, as well as participation in international forums.“

—Humans rights expert Francesca Albanese

https://x.com/afcq1954/status/1795381000345911435?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

This poor girl in Rafah right now. Only psychopaths can think this is ok.