This is the reality of what Israel is doing (part 3)

So you trust that Netanyahu wants peace?

And you believe that the action taken was the only way to ensure the existence
of Israel? You don’t see another way?

I don’t think posting pictures is about winning an argument, it’s about people understanding the true human cost of what is happening. It is easy to condone it when you can’t see the horror with your own eyes, or inhale the stench of death and disease, or feel the physical and psychological impact of starvation. If you had to stand next to those children who burned to death you might feel differently. I don’t think that people should accept this man made suffering, they should push for a better way. A reluctance to view the reality of what death and life is like for these people is a form of denial. These people aren’t pawns on a board, they are real people.

No I don't think Hamas made the right choice; do you really think Hamas want a 2 state solution
They do as much as the Israeli government does. Do you remember when Netanyahu held the map of Israel without Gaza and the West Bank? That's how much they want it.
Don't they want to be free from the river to the sea etc etc?
I believe this as also been used by Netanyahu.
It seems that both sides have walked away from a 2 state solution in the past,
They have. The only time this could have been achieved Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli.
I don't think that producing pictures of mutilated bodies means you win an argument on here. If people want to look at those pictures, then it is a free world, go ahead.
This is not about winning an argument. It's about the reality of what is happening. Bearing witness is extremely important that is why no international press in allowed in Gaza and journalists killed. Netanyahu does not want witnesses to the slaughter.
But, unless you are a complete pacificist etc etc then a war situation means there will be death, we know that, so there is just no point producing the pictures of dead bodies in a " See I am right " sort of way.
Of course, in war, there will be death but this is not a war. Please look up the definition of war.
If the state of Israel were to fall (which is what Hamas would probably really like) then it is most likely there would be a great deal more bloodshed and disruption across that region. No one really seems to have a plan on how to shore things up.
Israel won't fall because the USA won't let that happen.

Sorry I'm not sure where this should go, but this a video of a Palestinian woman with Israeli citizenship being arrested reportedly because of social media posts expressing sympathy with Gaza.

Democracy my foot. And what's with the blindfold? Israel loves a bit of sensory deprivation. So fucked up. She seems terrified. I hope she's not abused like other Palestinians in Israeli detention are.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7jfKvvM2mI/?igsh=eXk3czk2cDFoYzB5

My response to you says exactly what I think. The situation was very concerning before October 7th but now it is a lot worse, as there is a war happening.

I think that if we have more widespread armed conflict in the world, then it will a much more dangerous place for many many people. It's likely that the disintegration of Israel as a state would be awful for many people in the Middle East and Europe.

Re the pictures, see my previous response. We know that war causes these things, full stop.

@Gunnersforthecup thats not a proper answer to my email, it’s a childlike thing to say. Please try harder.

Also, in your message to @PeasfullPerson you say that the the world is safer. Safer for who, exactly?

Furthermore you mention the links to pictures of the children being mutilated and massacred in Gaza. I think you don’t want to look at the pictures as you know they will upset you, which I would respect if you were against the idf being allowed to commit these atrocities, but you are in support of them so you should be looking at the aftermath. It’s easy to justify all kinds of things from a theoretical distance. You should be looking at what you are justifying.

@Finallyloggedin I think the situation before October 7th was better than the situation after.

I think the world is probably a safer place if Israel continues to exist as a state. That is what they are fighting for, at one level, after October 7th.

I am deeply suspicious of Netanyahu at the same time. of course I don't agree with all the things he has done.

But I think the current conflict was deliberately precipitated and some sort of war was then almost inevitable etc etc

No I don't think Hamas made the right choice; do you really think Hamas want a 2 state solution? Don't they want to be free from the river to the sea etc etc? It seems that both sides have walked away from a 2 state solution in the past, even though it might be the best option for peace.

I don't think that producing pictures of mutilated bodies means you win an argument on here. If people want to look at those pictures, then it is a free world, go ahead.

But, unless you are a complete pacificist etc etc then a war situation means there will be death, we know that, so there is just no point producing the pictures of dead bodies in a " See I am right " sort of way.

If the state of Israel were to fall (which is what Hamas would probably really like) thenit is most likely there would be a great deal more bloodshed and disruption across that region. No one really seems to have a plan on how to shore things up.

@Gunnersforthecup you really think that everything which happened up to October 7th can be summed up as “low key skirmishes” ???

Here is an article from September last year, published by an Israeli news site, about bombs IDF had used https://www.972mag.com/armed-drones-automated-killing-palestinians/

Pertinent point about the use of automated drones: “The Israeli army has been using armed drones for decades to carry out, among other things, extrajudicial executions. But until last year, it was officially forbidden to publish this basic fact in the Israeli media; only on July 20, 2022, did the Israeli military censor change its policy. The longstanding media ban helped to stifle an informed public debate in Israel on the morality of these drones, even as such lively discussions were happening elsewhere in the world, especially around their use by the U.S. military. “

This is just one example of thousands upon thousands.

@DomPom47 said slightly upthread about an average of one Palestinian child being killed each week by the Israeli military.

Even before October 7th, 2023 was the deadliest year in record in the West Bank (where, as you know, hamas aren’t in power, so this can’t be connected to hamas).

See this link from the Jewish Voice for Peace on some of the violence against Palestinians just in the short run up to October tugs https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/

The brutality of the Israeli occupation is well documented , you don’t have to look far for it. They have been killing Palestinians without consequence for a very long time. Also thousands of Palestinians are taken hostage for years at a time with no reason given. Including many children.

It is my opinion that all killing and hostage taking is wrong, but you seem to think that killing of thousands upon thousands of innocent Palestinians is somehow justified by the events of October 7th, yet that killing that happened on October 7th is not justified by the killing of thousands upon thousands of Palestinians prior to that.

You can’t have it both ways, either it is all wrong or it is all acceptable.

@Gunnersforthecup up thread you talk about weighing up the loss of life and whether it’s Ok to bomb civilian areas.

Do you therefore believe that the actions of the Israeli government, which involves killing Palestinian civilians while also going after Hamas, and is causing upset around the world, are making the world a safer place?

Do you believe Hamas made the right choice when they killed Israeli civilians in order to highlight the cause of the Palestinian people, because this may result in a two state solution and long term peace?

I don’t agree with any of these actions, it is a devils advocate question.

You think that people should stop sharing images of the reality of what happens in war because it doesn’t help. What are your thoughts on the role of distance and dehumanisation as factors that have allowed humans to commit atrocities against each other?

A Jewish Anerican journalist has recently observed that Saudi Arabia puts extremists in prison whereas Israel puts them in government. Presumably referring to both the Netanyahu and the Hamas administrations

A fair response.

My preferred response would be to vacate the nursery and send in armed police or soldiers to arrest the evil gits.

FWIW, I also support the arrest warrant for Netanyahu. He had a number of options the day after Oct 7th and he has consistently chosen the bloodiest ones.

This is what Haaretz (Israeli) said about it.
I did not know how to include your image but have added a screenshot.

"Mouthpieces identified with the Netanyahu government celebrated the civilians' deaths in Rafah in a series of beastly posts on social media. After nearly eight months of war, it appears that Hamas' Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar's grand plan is proceeding as planned – Jewish Hamasniks are slowly sprouting up" – Amos Harel

I think we’ve got crossed wires, and am not here to fight with you.

The poster who posed the question was of course doing so in the hope of making clear that what is happening to Palestinian civilians and their children is not morally acceptable.

Not morally vacuous. Thanks.

You don't need to be insulting, it doesn't help your argument, you know.

@ScrollingLeaves it is totally disingenuous to claim that the question was a hypothetical one, when the reality is that babies are literally being bombed to death - to pieces - and the pro-Iraeli stance is that this is legitimate collateral damage.

It is similarly disingenuous to distance this thread from Mumsnet. This isn't Twitter or Reddit. This site exists primarily as a space for parents, so yes, I find it particularly objectionable to see these morally vacuous arguments made here.

I

see reply of 13:45

@Gunnersforthecup

If two Hamas leaders were hiding under a nursery in Tel Aviv would it be justified to drop a 2000lb bomb on it?

Sorry, that was explaining to Notoutloud
20:05

Yes, that’s true, I saw the post.

It (the nursery) was used as an example which would explain a point especially clearly.

These Conflict in the Middle East threads are about extraordinary and terrible things happening, with some posters with links to both sides.

The threads are not parenting forum subjects as such apart from despair over what is happening to children on either side.
The example of the nursery was perfectly valid imo and the context that it was entirely hypothetical and not in this war was absolutely clear.

@Gunnersforthecup presumably the intention behind the question was to try to find the point at which you would concede that the Israeli offensive in Gaza had crossed a line.

Evidently, the bombing of babies - hypothetical ones in nurseries or real ones asleep in displacent camps - is not a red line for you.

I was only answering someone else's question; someone very very keen to talk about bombing nurseries.

It really wasn't my idea to go down that particular rabbit hole.

A poster on a parenting forum, equivocating about the circumstances in which it would be acceptable to bomb a nursery.

Fuck this planet, I want to get off.

Also, I did not say that absolutely everything Israel does is justified because it is at war. I certainly don't think Netanyahu and co are perfect, though I do understand why they wanted to take action against Hamas.

But at the same time, I don't see the point of posting up pictures of injured people etc, because that inevitably does happen in war. Pictures of corpses do not make an argument.

In fact, it suggests that the posters doing that don't have a decent argument, so they are relying on a sort of visual battery.

Well, my impression was that there were low-key skirmishes before October 7th. After this provocation, Israel went on to launch a war.

But you know this really, I think.