To be worried about the effects on British society of the conflict in Gaza

So what do you think changed that means that Hamas no longer want to kill Jews? (Except from the fact that, y'know, they're still doing it.)

Yes - the persecution of Christians ( the most persecuted religion in the world) is massively under reported. It’s as though no one cares.
It needs more media exposure- but that’s a topic for another thread.

"@stormy4319trevor
@SummerFeverVenice Yes, there is very little concern for Palestinian Christians, which I think is tragic. They are probably the oldest Christian community in the world,"

In reality there Christians make up less than 1% of Gaza's population or less than 2,000 people down from over 10% in 1945. The numbers have fallen sharply due to the Israeli economic embargo on Gaza plus persecution from Hamas itself so anyone who could get out got out.

In terms of persecuted Christians I am much more concerned about the hundred of thousands of Christians currently being slave traded and killed in Sudan.

@Newbutoldfather
Ultimately, Israel has been waging this campaign for a long time now and needs to clearly explain their end goal to their allies and benefactors. "

As to an end goal if there is a ceasefire now then no more innocent Gazan civilians would be killed but Hamas would remain in power and seek to continue to attack and kill innocent Israeli civilians as they have promised to do so.

If there is no ceasefire then there are no more innocent Israeli civilians being killed but there would be more innocent Gazan civilians being killed.

If Israel somehow succeeds in removing Hamas from power then they would quite likely be replaced by an even more extremist group such as PIJ.

If Israel fails to remove Hamas then the conflict continues.

The only solution i can see is if Hamas are somehow persuaded to step down from power. A third party country (Turkey? / Egypt? / somebody?) takes control of Gaza in the short term. The border is sealed and Gaza has nothing to do with Israel and vice versa.

The West Bank is somehow made to become economically successful to provide an alternative future to the continued violence and a two state solution implemented. All new Israeli settlements in the WB are stopped in the short term and existing ones dismantled in the medium term.

That said I can't see it happening because the polarisation and hatred is now too deeply entrenched on both sides.

@mids2019 ,

I agree, I am also torn.

The current definition of genocide is much expanded from the original one (which surprised me) and, if Israel is trying to displace the Palestinian population (which they are v quiet about), it might qualify.

Hamas is a tough one. Clearly, anyone connected with the atrocities committed deserves zero mercy, but I think Hamas is a broad umbrella and includes the civilian police force, for instance. Should Israel look to eliminate all of Hamas, including those not involved (and probably not even aware of) the planning of the massacre?

Ultimately, Israel has been waging this campaign for a long time now and needs to clearly explain their end goal to their allies and benefactors. Destroying Gaza and displacing it’s population is not an acceptable end goal if they want to keep their label as a civilised country.

@Tardigrade001

But wouldn't a neutral stance mean stopping all political and military support for Israel selling arms to Israel. But also stopping all humanitarian assistance as well such as air drops etc?

Church communities here have been collecting for a specific Palestinian Christian charity that supports orphaned children of any faith. I don’t think it is being highlighted because, quite frankly, they are all in the same boat - Muslim or Christian- they are Palestinian and they are suffering the same fate 😣

Luckily there is a legal definition of genocide and actions taken or not taken by the Israeli govt /IDF can be proven.

The ICJ did not dismiss the case and did produce a judgement that Israel needs to allow humanitarian assistance which it is currently not doing (having killed 7 aid workers yesterday for an unknown reason).

The only way to minimise the effects on British society is for the UK to take a neutral stance in the conflict. That means stopping all political and military support for Israel and especially selling arms to Israel.
Then concentrate on entirely humanitarian efforts.

I said a while back on here that the Israeli Govt's actions were endangering all of us and increasing our security risks. The British Govt support of Israel affects all of us and the vast majority of British people polled do not support Israeli actions in Gaza.

In this leaked information not only does it appear UK Govt lawyers are saying Israel is breaking International Humanitarian law which has implications for the UK, Alicia Kearns also states "It (Israel's actions) is making our (UK)long term security less certain. I'm amazed our national threat level has not gone up"

@mids2019 I am not really sure what you asking me to do, ignore it? and do you really think people shouldn't be concerned about this or questioning the UK support of Israel. The people I work/mix with don't talk about religion, they just say WTF are we (UK) doing supporting this. Simple as that.
UK government lawyers say Israel is breaking international law, claims top Tory in leaked recording | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

@mids2019 ,

But where would your threshold lie?

Would you continue to support Britain’s support for Israel whatever they did? What if the civilian casualties doubled or tripled or if Israel refused the Gazans ever to return north of the East West ‘road’ that they have built?

I don’t think that the Israeli government should believe they have a God-given right to the diaspora’s support.

The 2017 charter doesn’t repudiate the earlier one. And there are many statements by senior Hamas officials before and after 2017 that talk about obliterating Israel, and therefore Jews.

Israel, understandably, regards Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran (which funds and directs antisemitic terrorism, as well as oppressing its own people) as existential threats.

Some protesters in this country are vocally in support of the Houthis. There’s another avowedly antisemitic group.

Which takes us back to the original tone of the post - to silence those that are opposed to genocide.

@1dayatatime there is no conspiracy. Just everyday lived experience of anti islamic rhetoric in this country. And I mean daily. Until you've lived it you can't fully appreciate it. Calling it out labels me a problem on this thread.

As a non-religious person who is racially Jewish (Ashkenazi)and culturally Jewish, of course I ‘support’ Israel, but this support is not unconditional and, right now, I think Israel’s actions suggest that maybe Israel has reached a tipping point, and not in a good way.

As much as I support Israel’s right to exist, I also support the rights of the Palestinians to lead a dignified life in a land they can call their own and realise their aspirations.

I am not pro Israel and pro Palestine and how this conflict plays out will determine what I feel going forwards. I really hope that out of the ashes, both sides will pull back from extreme positions and find a way to live together harmoniously.

As for the UK, I have not found the Muslims that I know judge me worse for being Jewish (or vice versa). We do tend to avoid discussing the current conflict. The internet trading videos of atrocities is an awful thing and only encourages conflict among the young and ignorant.

Yes to @BerryMess ’s post.

@Elephantswillnever

"More than 70% had sympathies with both sides or didn’t know which side they would support."

On the topic of Gaza I would agree with that and for those 70% they are probably more concerned about cost of living crisis, NHS, taxation etc than a conflict thousands of miles away.

However of the 30% that do have a view they would have quite a polarised view. Plus whilst the 70% might be sitting on the fence on Gaza they might bitterly divided on another topic such as Brexit or next election or whatever.

I do think though that it has a lot to do with internet debate where people are happy to express views anonymously that they would never say in real life.

I think as listening to the radio the other day and they said that despite what media would have you believe most people are not polarised in their opinion. More than 70% had sympathies with both sides or didn’t know which side they would support.

I’m on a fence post as well it’s a awful long-standing conflict. There aren’t any easy answers.

@BerryMess

Thank you for an excellent post.

I completely agree with you and I fear that such polarisation and entrenchment of views has become a permanent shift in societal attitudes which in turn has a really negative impact on freedom of speech and democracy.

It goes beyond Gaza and indeed we first started seeing such polarised views in the aftermath of Brexit. There was similar divisions over the Covid measures with one side being accused as anti vax granny killers and the other side Govt sheep. And to a lesser degree we also have such divisions on just stop oil and Ukraine.

IMO it is in large part due to internet debate which firstly encourages people to make views anonymously which they would never due in real life. Secondly it allows similar views to congregate in an echo chamber creating even greater polarisation. Thirdly if you represent an opposing opinion then you must be an evil person and insulted as a terrorist supporter or genocide apologist etc. Fourthly it doesn't take much to transfer online hate into real life hate crimes whether that be anti Islamic or anti Jewish or murdering Brexit opposing MPs or setting fire to MPs constituency offices.

And whilst we can all agree that a divided society is harmful, the argument from Side A is that this is all the fault of Side B, and if only Side B conceded that Side A was right and they were wrong then there would be no such division.

I mean you only have to look at the post from @PinkTeaForMe to see a clear example of this. Because the OP declaring part way through her pro Israeli stance that in turn meant that her post was really a Muslim smearing campaign, with a chilling add "of which there are many" in order to conjure up some kind of conspiracy theory angle.

Although no doubt she will be along to respond that I must be some kind of fascist, apartheid, genocide supporter or whatever current buzzword for even pointing this out.

Thank you both. I think the way we're talking now is the route to harmony. We're listening to each other for starters! It's heartening to hear.

I find common ground with people everyday of my life. I work, I have children, I have a life that involves people (friends and family) who don't subscribe to the same belief system as me. We get on absolutely fine. Our views may be polar opposite on some things and in agreement on others. However, we're civil and can agree to disagree. I can discuss my views on Palestine and not face a barrage of abuse. The internet seems to unleash all the monsters though. I bet half the people on this post would never spew their toxicity in real life.

@BerryMess I don't dislike people for having different views. I do have concerns about bad faith efforts to smear a minority group by not very subtly placing all blame and responsibility at their feet.

So there can be no movement then and ultimately how well we get on with our neighbour is determined by their pro Israel or pro Palestine stance? And where does that leave those who are neutral or are more concerned with events closer to home; are they friends or foes? I know this is a passionate contentious issue for many, but honestly a lot of people right now are trying to feed their kids or worrying about how they're going to pay the gas bill this month! I think my point being, surely we have to respect that the people living around us may have polar opposite opinions on the conflict or may have no strong opinion at all, but we can still find common ground surely for the sake of cohesive relations? I might not like the Tory party but it doesn't mean I automatically dislike Tory voters!