Killing of 5 Foreign Aid Workers from the World Central Kitchen

@FOJN

Given the Hermes 900 carries Spike missiles and that the Hermes 450 is a smaller version then I really can't see it carrying anything heavier and there isn't really anything much lighter- plus it was carrying at least four of the things (carried in pairs and three were used). So a logical deduction is that they were Spike missiles.

Not sure why you won't say where you got that information but anyway I see it's been reported in today's Sunday Times, however still only saying "high likelihood".

Defence Industry Europe say the IAF won''t confirm what munitions they equip the Hermes 450 with.

https://defence-industry.eu/israel-iaf-uses-hermes-450-drones-for-precision-strikes-on-hamas-targets/

But what actual negative consequences have there been? Absolutely none.
A few Politicians have said they need to be more careful but thats all

@FOJN

"OK, I need to rephrase my question; where did the information about spike missiles come from? I've seen it "alleged" but not confirmed"

It's what is standard fitted to the Hermes done plus if it was anything more substantial then there really wouldn't have been anything left of the vehicles.

Yes - I don’t think the IDF deliberately attacked aid workers - that would make no sense. it’s an own goal for them because the whole horrible incident sheds a light on their lack of safeguards to make sure targets are legitimate. It suggests they view life in Gaza as cheap.

OK, I need to rephrase my question; where did the information about spike missiles come from? I've seen it "alleged" but not confirmed.

This is another article on it which cites the same figures. I believe the US have said they are going to look into these concerning reports.
Whether it's 100% true or not I don't know, I suppose more will come to light if it is investigated further.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240405-un-chief-deeply-troubled-by-reports-israel-using-ai-to-identify-gaza-targets

@Kendodd if I'm honest I was quite taken aback by that figure too. In any case I believe this is the article they were referring too if you did want to read it

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes

In the article Saschkalinks to it mentions that the IDF consider 15-20 civilians casualties for a low level Hamas operative or 100 civilian casualties for a high level Hamas member to be acceptable "collateral damage". The deaths in the attack on the WCK convoy are well within those limits.

I don't believe this.
I don't believe they would say 100 civilian casualties is acceptable collateral damage if they weren't Palestinians. I don't believe the IDF would kill 15/100 Israeli citizens or citizens of other nations to get one Hamas operative embedded amongst them. That's if this info is even true about IDF calculations.

@1dayatatime i did read an article in the times where a senior commander was talking about the growing culture amongst the IDF operating in Gaza of 'shoot first, ask questions later' so that would make sense also of what happened here. Especially amongst those lower down the chain of command, who up till now may have been acting recklessly with no consequences.
Either way this one single incident now brings into question the extremely high civilian death toll.
I believe it was one of the top US officials who pointed out that this one single incident serves as proof of why the US cannot support the IDF to carry out a ground invasion of Rafah.

Its because if he WAS mistaken (and lets be charitable and say it might have been a mistake) the negative consequences for him would be minimal.
The Israeli government and his superior officers are probably much more annoyed that his actions have shone a spotlight on what they are doing than the fact that he was responsible for the deaths of innocent aid workers.
And thats assuming it wasnt a deliberate tactic to stop aid and speed up the starvation of the Palestinian people

I would say after six months of Hamas doing a good job of hiding from the IDF who in their right minds would think it even remotely feasible that they’d be in a convoy of three vehicles driving at night.

Hamas have shown they are not stupid, so why would they be this time.
I would think a convoy would be worthy of further investigation before I pulled a trigger or pressed a button.

So yes, it’s kill first say sorry if we’re found out

@Parkingt111

"But I think it leads to the next question at what emboldened the soldier/commander to take such drastic action at a whim with such disregard for innocent life?"

Normally there are a really stringent checks required for drone operators with the maxim being "if there is any doubt then there is no doubt about not launching an attack ".

So what emboldened the soldier / commander to ignore all these checks and basically do what they want - effectively he / she wanted to blow people or stuff up on their shift before handing over, trying to find genuine verified targets has become much harder as the war progresses, combined with not really caring about civilian casualties.

@FOJN

Sure.

Three Spike missiles at a cost of $225,000 each ($675,000).

Plus the hourly operational cost of the Hermes drone. I have no idea how long it was flying around for before the strike but let's say 6 hours for which $75,000 would cover the drones cost (fuel, maintenance etc) plus the command and control costs (who I think clearly didn't do their job).

Comes to approximately $750,000.

The logo detail is strange. They had tracked the vehicles from the warehouse which is where they claim to have seen the suspected Hamas member with a gun. The "man with a gun" is their justification so I'm not sure why they have mentioned not being able to see the logo. They knew what the convoy was or they are admitting to firing on a random vehicles.

They have admitted they targeted an aid convoy because they they claim they thought there was an armed Hamas member in one of the vehicles.

In the article Saschka links to it mentions that the IDF consider 15-20 civilians casualties for a low level Hamas operative or 100 civilian casualties for a high level Hamas member to be acceptable "collateral damage". The deaths in the attack on the WCK convoy are well within those limits.

I've seen a couple of people mention (former military and intelligence) that the drone control centre would have been staffed by senior military and intelligence officers, as well as the drone operators, who would have had to give authorisation for a drone strike. This was not the result of an incompetent junior soldier. It's either incompetence at all levels of the IDF and intelligence services or it's deliberate murder and they are only sorry they got found out.

Can I ask how you arrived at $750,000? I've seen the model of the drone mentioned but not the specific type of missile or any mention of the cost.

@1dayatatime that could be a plausible explanation for it.
But I think it leads to the next question at what emboldened the soldier/commander to take such drastic action at a whim with such disregard for innocent life?
To me it would seem that it's the normal way the war is conducted, it's just this time it's caused an outcry because of who was killed.

@EasterIssland oh yes I agree. Trying to keep everyone happy aswell as retain his seat in the next election and possibly failing at both

I don’t trust Biden. Few days ago they were approving sending weapons to Israel (think it was around the same time of the deaths of the aid workers). Think he’s trying to please pro Israel and pro ceasefire groups and keeping both angry

@Dulra

"have you a theory?"

I genuinely don't think it was a deliberate attack on the aid vehicles. I do think that you have trigger happy drone operators along with a non functioning chain of command not caring about who or what they blow up.

@Parkingt111

"Genuine question do you think a button was pressed by mistake? "

It is impossible to ever know exactly what happened and even if there was evidence one way or the other then this would be dismissed by the "other side".

But if I had to hazard a guess I would say that after six months of drone attacks that finding genuine Hamas targets is becoming harder and harder, especially individuals in vehicles ( if you were a Hamas member would you travel around by vehicle?) So you had a drone operator late at night looking for targets and not finding much.

Along comes three vehicles that are not Israeli on a clear coastal road and it looks like an easy hit and presumes it's not civilian because they are together.

The drone operator doesn't check to see if they had a right to be there (aid convoy) or if he does then he gets a green light from the next level up who also doesn't check. They then target all three vehicles.

In short a trigger happy drone operator who is finding his job increasingly harder gets presented with an easy three targets and just doesn't bother or care about doing the necessary checks (including whether it was simply civilian vehicles). He just wants to blow people and stuff up.

Looking at everything now, unfortunately the deaths or I would say murders of the foreign aid workers has become a pivotal moment for Israeli allies in this war. It seems to be the tipping point of where a line is drawn and where the way the war is being conducted can no longer be openly supported. Biden has now given his ultimatum, but what a shame that it took this long and the deaths of these seven beautiful souls before he did.
And what a shame that the deaths of over thirty thousand Palestinians does not seemingly hold the same value.

I have no idea how much arms cost but I'm shocked by that figure, god as a species we are seriously effed up.

I'm not sure why you keep focusing on the price of the weapons? Or why you think any of us can answer why they used what they used, have you a theory?

@Saschka yes what I was trying to say but you articulated it better thank you

I’d assume those things take time to set up, whereas a drone attack is ready to go and actively looking for targets to hit each night.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting Netanyahu ordered this as part of a long-planned attack on international aid. Or they would just not have let WCK land and unload.

We’re saying the IDF think anyone in Gaza is fair game, and will kill whoever they want to kill regardless of the collateral damage, and without checking too closely who they are actually targeting.