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Conflict in the Middle East

Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?

469 replies

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 31/03/2024 15:29

I know there are lots of pro-Palestine supporters in this area of the board. If not anti-Semitic then what else is it standing for in this context? Apparently it was drawn on some protestors banners.

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13
Limesodaagain · 02/04/2024 10:57

I completely accept that many use the phrase in support of peace but let’s not pretend it hasn’t become a contentious slogan.

Limesodaagain · 02/04/2024 10:55

From Wikipedia
The phrase was popularised among the Palestinian population in the 1960s as a call for liberation from living under the military occupation of Israel.[6] In the 1960s, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) used it to call for a democratic secular state encompassing the entirety of Mandatory Palestine, which was initially stated to only include the Palestinians and the descendants of Jews who had lived in Palestine before 1947, although this was later revised to only include descendants of Jews who had lived in Palestine before the first Aliyah.[7] Thus, by 1969, "Free Palestine from the river to the sea" came to mean "one democratic secular state that would supersede the ethno-religious state of Israel".[7][8]
Palestinian progressives have used the phrase to call for a united democracy over the whole territory,[9] whilst others have called it "a call for peace and equality after [...] decades-long, open-ended Israeli military rule over millions of Palestinians."[10] Islamist militant faction Hamasused the phrase in its 2017 charter. Usage of the phrase by such Palestinian militant groups has led critics to argue that it implicitly advocates for the dismantling of Israel, and a call for the removal or extermination of the Jewish population of the region.[8][10]

2017 Hamas charter - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter

Limesodaagain · 02/04/2024 10:53

KestrelMoon · 02/04/2024 08:52

I think you may be in a geographically challenged minority that thinks

  1. that the top of Israel is bounded by the Jordan river and the bottom the Mediterranean Sea. And
  2. they are the only country that is bordered by both the Jordan river and the Mediterranean.

You might want to look at a few maps before claiming to understand anything.

I think you are being very disingenuous in your claim that this phrase is not provocative in intent.
We know context changes meanings of words and particular words shift meaning or become loaded with certain associations over time.
Calling people “geographically challenged “ for finding the phrase provocative is in itself provocative.

Auvergne63 · 02/04/2024 10:34

stomachamelon · 02/04/2024 10:27

That seems like reaching. And very unlikely. Or are we to discuss every unlikely scenario so you can prove your point?
Geez.

Is this aimed at me? If it is, please make it clear!

stomachamelon · 02/04/2024 10:27

That seems like reaching. And very unlikely. Or are we to discuss every unlikely scenario so you can prove your point?
Geez.

Auvergne63 · 02/04/2024 09:10

caringcarer · 01/04/2024 22:23

The London police all seem to be afraid of the Palestinian protesters so stand by and they fo what they like. Only a few weeks ago the very offensive quote from the rivers to the seas was projected on a public building. The police did nothing to stop it happening.

Would it have been ok if a pro Israeli government protestor had projected it, instead? I believe this phrase is also used by the Israeli government.

Kendodd · 02/04/2024 08:59

caringcarer · 02/04/2024 00:36

Do you know the names of the teenagers who were shot by Hamas when at a festival? I saw lots of dead and shot Israeli teens on TV. One of the released hostages was raped and they were kept in appalling conditions. Many hostages are still held captive. How do you defend that? There is fault on both sides but on October 7th Hamas broke the fragile peace. It won't be restored as long as they keep hold of the hostages. Yet they still won't release them. Why don't you hate Hamas?

Here's a list of the teenagers names for you, and others killed.
www.gov.il/en/departments/news/swords-of-iron-civilian-casualties#:~:text=Pongfat%20Suchart%2C%20Thai%20national%2C%20murdered,the%20Gaza%20Strip%2C%207%20October.
And a list of some the estimated 10,000 children killed in Gaza by Israel
www.google.com/amp/s/interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/

Shame on you all.
A plague on both your houses.

KestrelMoon · 02/04/2024 08:54

caringcarer · 02/04/2024 00:26

What is needed is for the Israeli hostages to be released. Imagine how their families must feel. It's been so long but they are not forgotten.

Yes, and the realease of hostages can’t happen without a permanent ceasefire.
Not with IDF kill zones where they are killing anyone they see, unarmed or not, Palestinian or Israeli or foreign aid worker/journalist/medic from abroad.

KestrelMoon · 02/04/2024 08:52

caringcarer · 02/04/2024 00:24

Because everyone knows the river at the top of country to the sea at the bottom means they want to take over the whole country and obliviate all Jews out of country. Don't pretend you don't understand this.

I think you may be in a geographically challenged minority that thinks

  1. that the top of Israel is bounded by the Jordan river and the bottom the Mediterranean Sea. And
  2. they are the only country that is bordered by both the Jordan river and the Mediterranean.

You might want to look at a few maps before claiming to understand anything.

KestrelMoon · 02/04/2024 08:49

kasstherito · 01/04/2024 23:36

You're the one claiming that a consensus had so.ehow been reached at some unspecified time by some unspecified majority.

That was an earlier poster claiming that there was only one meaning:
”Because it means that the area from the River and the sea should be Palestine. E.g. the destruction of Israel.”

Ask them for evidence, or present it yourself instead of objecting to my objection of an extraordinary claim that isn’t reflected at all in any reputable source.

VerityUnreasonble · 02/04/2024 08:15

This reply has been deleted

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Ok, you seem very distressed by the horrors of the war and that is understandable. I think everyone is. No one wants it.

But this post is based on a lot of things that aren't true.

The Kingdom of Israel existed on that land since the 9th century BCE alongside Judah. It's not a country that never was. There was a bit of back and forth, Jews got banished to Babylon, got sent back to Judah (return to Zion - hence Zionism) rebuilt the temple that had been destroyed. Then there were a number of wars.

Hadrian came along, killed the vast majority of Jews and renames the whole area Syria Palestina.

However, a population of Jewish people remained in the area, being persecuted on and off by various ruling powers in a variety of different ways, often having to display their Jewishness (yellow belt, golden calf symbol etc.).

Other Jews who had left the area get occasionally persecuted and expelled from various countries (there's a map around somewhere, it's almost weirdly impressive how many countries Jews have been expelled from). In the 1400 the Ottoman empire actually invited Jews to return to the area, after they got expelled from some European countries which made a nice change.

There's another significant migration of Jewish people back to the area is the 1700s too. Then again in the late 1800s. Unsurprisingly, elsewhere in the world, they were not being treated particularly well.

Obviously then there is the situation around the Ottoman empire and the mandate etc. and the people who moved due to this especially after the events of the second world war. Then the people who moved after it.

So which ones should "go home" and where to? Many people who live in Israel have ties to that area going back many hundreds of years.

Limesodaagain · 02/04/2024 06:13

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This is an extraordinarily ignorant post for someone who claims to lead discussions on the topic with the schoolchildren they teach. I hope the post is removed.

Northernsouloldies · 02/04/2024 02:44

Considering it's a teacher.
Substitute the word Israeli to Jewish.
Substitute Jewish for black
Substitute black for Asian.
Would her predujice be tolerated..

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 02/04/2024 01:52

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caringcarer · 02/04/2024 00:36

This reply has been deleted

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Do you know the names of the teenagers who were shot by Hamas when at a festival? I saw lots of dead and shot Israeli teens on TV. One of the released hostages was raped and they were kept in appalling conditions. Many hostages are still held captive. How do you defend that? There is fault on both sides but on October 7th Hamas broke the fragile peace. It won't be restored as long as they keep hold of the hostages. Yet they still won't release them. Why don't you hate Hamas?

Northernsouloldies · 02/04/2024 00:32

Comedycook · 01/04/2024 23:41

So you hate Israelis...you said that in an earlier post. But you have now caveated that by saying not babies and children. So at what age would you start to hate them?

The scary part of this is those opinions are held by a teacher and they are far from coherent and just come across as a hate filled rant.to hate a nationality because what a government does is absurd.

caringcarer · 02/04/2024 00:26

KestrelMoon · 01/04/2024 23:08

@twinklestar10
There is a saying: ”Be careful when fighting monsters; you do not yourself become one.”

Yes, the Israeli government is doing inhumane acts, potentially war crimes, and has some really bad war mongering people among its leaders, but that is not reason to call for the destruction of the entire country- the blood of thousands of innocent Israelis cannot be washed away by the blood of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians which cannot be washed away by the blood of millions of innocent Israelis. Peace is what we need to be pushing, not escalation and revenge.

Edited

What is needed is for the Israeli hostages to be released. Imagine how their families must feel. It's been so long but they are not forgotten.

caringcarer · 02/04/2024 00:24

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at poster's request

Because everyone knows the river at the top of country to the sea at the bottom means they want to take over the whole country and obliviate all Jews out of country. Don't pretend you don't understand this.

Limesodaagain · 02/04/2024 00:12

Comedycook · 01/04/2024 23:37

They also stated that they hate Israelis. What if they had an Israeli pupil? I'm not sure I want any teachers to actively hate an entire nation.

It’s deeply worrying. I hope the children they teach are not being influenced or harmed by that hate.

greenlettuce · 01/04/2024 23:57

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The appalling Nazi regime was aiming at extermination of an entire race, Hitler wanted world domination of the Ayran race. There is no parallel

Comedycook · 01/04/2024 23:41

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at poster's request

So you hate Israelis...you said that in an earlier post. But you have now caveated that by saying not babies and children. So at what age would you start to hate them?

Limesodaagain · 01/04/2024 23:38

Scirocco · 01/04/2024 23:34

@twinklestar10 It is heartbreaking.

Hate won't help, though. Hate just continues the cycle. The only way to break the cycle is to prioritise peace over vengeance.

Israel has a right to exist. It needs to exist. It is the only Jewish country in the world. The people living there, whether they moved there or were born there, have a right to exist and to live in their home country - Israel.

Feeling angry at the Israeli government, at the IDF, that's one thing. But to take it to the extremes of wanting Israel itself not to exist? That's hate, and all that brings is more darkness and pain to a world that's already got too much of those in it.

Thank you for your calm and thoughtful responses. It’s a terrible situation and it’s so understandable that people feel emotional and angry so it’s good to have calm voices

twinklestar10 · 01/04/2024 23:38

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Comedycook · 01/04/2024 23:37

Limesodaagain · 01/04/2024 23:35

I don’t think you should be leading discussions in school on this topic if you are feeling so (understandably) distressed and emotional.

They also stated that they hate Israelis. What if they had an Israeli pupil? I'm not sure I want any teachers to actively hate an entire nation.

kasstherito · 01/04/2024 23:36

KestrelMoon · 01/04/2024 23:28

You can judge based on your sample of 1 extremist poster, soon to be banned, on mumsnet if you like. No need for a poll.

You're the one claiming that a consensus had so.ehow been reached at some unspecified time by some unspecified majority.