Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?

@KestrelMoon Yes, I was agreeing with you, but crossed posts. Apologies if I was unclear.

@BabaBarrio
I can post for myself. I think @ChalkWitch and I have been saying the same thing and it’s just a cross post issue. Please stop posting about a conversation that doesn’t involve you. Thank you in advance.

I wasn’t assuming you were Jewish or not, I was referring to the fact you were telling Kestrel, who has said on this thread that she is Jewish. I made no assumption either way about you.

deepbiscuits comment: “The cause of antisemitic crimes are antisemites.”

Kestrel wrote:
Yes, of course, but that’s too simplistic of a conclusion. The documented 700%+ increase in antisemitic hate incidents is directly correlated to the ongoing war. There aren’t any more or fewer antisemites in the U.K., it is the current war that is emboldening them to act on their bigotry and hate.

you said
”No, it’s not too simplistic a conclusion. The war in Gaza is not causing a rise in anti-semitism. It is being used to legitimise already existing anti-semitism.”

Crimes being committed isn’t legitimising crime btw, but I have to wonder what Kestrel originally said that you disagreed with?
“You have misunderstood. My point is that the war has not increased the level of anti-semitism as it has always been there; anti-semites now seem to feel that they are able to be overt about it due to the conflict, that their racism is somehow legitimised because of the Gaza/ Israel conflict.”

Deepbiscuit is interpreting what you wrote as being the same as what Kestrel wrote: “I don't see how saying existing anti-Semites are more emboldened now is on and way like arguing with a rape victim.”

So yes, to me it reads like someone (Jewish or not) quibbling with a self-identified Jewish person on their word choice regarding the much increase in antisemitic crimes directly correlated to the Gaza war.

I am still scratching my head over this.

@BabaBarrio interesting you assume I’m not Jewish.
It’s not really anything like arguing with a rape victim is it? Gaza has increased the number of anti-Semitic crimes but not the amount of anti-semitism. It’s always been there if you cared to look but I think the conflict has increased perceived legitimacy to act on it.
I don’t believe there is a change in the level of anti-semitism but in the level of anti-Semitic acts.

I don't see how saying existing anti-Semites are more emboldened now is on and way like arguing with a rape victim.

@ChalkWitch
If the Gaza war hasn’t increased the number of antisemtic crimes/level of antisemtism, then why do all the reporting agencies say that that antisemtic crimes are up by 1,350% in London? And 800%+ RUK?

It can’t all be covert becoming overt? And even if you think it is just that why would you tell a Jewish person that there is no change in the level of antisemtism when their community is the one that has seen an increase of 1,350% in antisemtic hate crimes?

I read the exchange and it felt like you were arguing with a rape victim pointing out that the incidence of rape is up by a hell of a lot that you think the level of rape hasn’t increased because rape has always been there and rapists are just being more overt about their misogyny.

You have misunderstood. My point is that the war has not increased the level of anti-semitism as it has always been there; anti-semites now seem to feel that they are able to be overt about it due to the conflict, that their racism is somehow legitimised because of the Gaza/ Israel conflict.

And yes, I do know what makes an anti-Semite tick, the same things that make other racists tick. Hatred and ignorance.

@Northernsouloldies I think the obstacle the woman is describing is in relation to the new hate crime/hate incident law in Scotland, which is causing some confusion in how it's implemented. My understanding is that, in order for an incident to be specifically addressed under this legislation, the reporter of the act of concern needs to be someone with the protected characteristic targeted by the act of concern. In this case, it looks like a non-Jewish person has, entirely understandably, seen and been offended by the social media post. They've reported it and it's being investigated (and will hopefully lead to the appropriate legal action being taken) under the applicable legislation, but because she isn't reporting it as a member of a 'relevant' protected group under the hate crime legislation, that particular legislation can't be used.

It looks to be a frustrating loophole in the new act, that two people could report the same offensive thing, both have it recognised as being offensive, but the police would need to use different legislation to address it based on the characteristics of the people reporting it.

I think Baba was referencing not what the “woman who wished not to be identified” told the press which you have summarised, but rather what the Scottish Police officially told the press:

”Police Scotland said it was investigating a complaint “as a communications offence”, rather than under hate crime laws.”

The image was on a Facebook post
” An image of a Nazi swastika within a Star of David was said to have been posted on the Facebook page of Tom Arthur Snr, who is the father of public finance minister Tom Arthur.”

The only thing I can recall that was similar was a British activist who had a Nazi Barbie as her profile picture on an SM site. I don’t think she was ever prosecuted for that as I can’t even remember who that was.

Hope I'm right in saying case in Scotland new hate law.
A swastika embedded in a star of David.
Woman complained
Copper asks if she's Jewish.
Woman answers no.
Copper..no further action but been noted.

? The article says they do consider it criminal as a communications offense? I would guess because it was on SM and not in real life?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-ministers-father-resigns-party-membership-over-antisemitic-facebook-post-4583854

Apparently not every police officer thinks Nazi imagery is criminal.

The Evening Standard reported the reasons for arrest:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/palestine-protest-downing-street-march-al-quds-day-demonstration-b1149752.html

Out of “Around 1,000” Pro-Palestinian protesters:
2 men arrested for burning an Israeli flag

Bystanders:
Another man was arrested for a public order offence after he was heard making a homophobic remark. A number of people who tried to prevent the man’s arrest have also been arrested for obstruction, the Met added.

Out of “dozens” of Pro-Israeli (counter)protesters:
1 man arrested for failing to stay in counter protest designated area
2 men arrested on suspicion of making threats to kill.

Whatever you say, I am sure you know better than I what makes an antisemtic person tick, I’ve only ever been on the victim end of that stick.

Love this.

I was also thinking yesterday of the relationship Germany now has with Israel and its such recent history that that state tried to eradicate Jews (as well as others). It gives me hope that there will always be a way to find peace.

or look at Hiroshima now? After being totally devastated.

On that note @CatsKnowTheAnswer and @Muthaofcats i am watching a program about archaeology in Albania.
A heartening story of how 64 Muslim and Christian families hid over 600 Jewish people whilst Albania was under Nazi occupation.

Working together, like that, I believe can still be possible.

@Muthaofcats I think important components of any ceasefire deal would need to be the removal of Hamas from 'government' in Gaza, the holding to account of their leadership, and the release and return of all hostages (alive and deceased, where physically possible). The Israeli government has been clear that their current position is that even the return of all hostages would not stop them from going ahead with further military action.

BBC Verify published a piece on the progress made in dismantling Hamas, and it looks like all this bloodshed has led to very little in the way of actual progress towards that aim.

I don’t disagree with that though; this could all be resolved (or at least the heat taken out) if the hostages were returned, but Hamas doesn’t want this to resolve and doesn’t want a ceasefire so they will continue to hold them. Of course a ceasefire should include the return of the hostages.

it’s a very strange conflict in the sense that one side seems completely free from accountability, When they kill a citizen there is no apology or investigation. When Israel does, they are held to the highest levels of accountability and must publicly apologise (I don’t disagree with this but it’s just so unusual to have such a unilateral war).

The other issue is that Hamas will have ‘won’ if there is even one member left alive; because it is an ideology. So I don’t expect they even care that a third of their militants are dead because it’s all part of a wider objective; they certainly don’t mind the civilians dying in the name of their cause.

But how on Earth does Israel move forward from a ceasefire? They aren’t safe living there until Hamas is eradicated, but when and how is that going to be possible? And at what human cost?

It does rather make one wonder whether Israel ploughing on will ever see any success. Is this going to be a decades long ordeal? Given all the intricate tunnels and how intertwined with society Hamas is, how does one ever eradicate them all? And if it’s not possible, then why continue to press on knowing all the collateral damage is likely to be for nothing?

ugh, it’s so depressing

I agree!
I think the two demonstrations in London the other day, from what I read, one side was chanting 'ceasefire now' the other was chanting 'no hostages, no ceasefire'.

Absolutely this. If these are ' peace ' marches, why not have everyone march together in solidarity ? We all have a common aim after all don't we?

Thank you!

@Kendodd you could try an online search for 'ceasefire march [place name]' or similar, which should bring up relevant local results including Facebook pages and should also bring up websites for bigger organisations coordinating marches or events - most of them have 'get involved' or 'contact us' options, which can direct you towards local organisers.

Local organisers are probably more helpful than general information from a 'central office', as local organisers can tell you about the culture of their own area's events - they might even be able to suggest some to avoid if you have particular concerns (eg, if the atrocities of 7/10 had happened in the UK, I might not want to go to an academic discussion about the technicalities of armed resistance vs terrorism given that it would have been 6 months since those atrocities and it would probably still be too raw - those discussions are important but can be distressing). Some events might also have 'buddy' options, where you could meet someone to attend with them - it can feel intimidating going to unfamiliar, politically charged environments.

Together for Humanity have done interfaith work advocating for peace, so could be one to check out. Parents for Palestine do some family events and organise 'children's blocs' for marches and demonstrations, so they could probably direct you to lead organisers as well as tell you about their own activities. (Disclaimer: mentioning these should not be taken as support or otherwise - they're simply being mentioned as options for finding out the information you'd want in order to decide whether to attend an event).

Another thing to remember is that, as many events are public, you don't have to be a participant to observe what it's like. You can just be in the area as an inconspicuous member of the public and get an idea of whether you would want to try participating. For example, if you see a march where people protesting peacefully, not doing upsetting things or behaving violently, that's very different from one where there's hate and threats.

@Scirocco
If you aren't in London and want to get involved, you could make contact with your local event organisers and ask them questions about their approaches to events, antisemitism, etc, to see if you'd feel comfortable.

How would I find out about them?

Agree too.

I broadly support Israel but have come to a point where I do think there should be a ceasefire.

However I would not go on a march ever. Do I think all those protesting are anti semetic and hate Jews...no...but some do and I will never stand alongside them.

We had a few very unpleasant people who turned up to a few events with offensive signs that were clearly anti-semitic. We were told we couldn't send them away because it was "a public space" and there would need to be a threshold of "fear and alarm" met to have them removed. So, we 'organised' them into an area hopefully far enough away to keep them away from groups who could be particularly upset or vulnerable to them, and warned others that they were there (we had a plan but people needed to have the choice to not attend). Once the event started, we had lots of us go to the police and point them out as causing fear and alarm. Threshold met, fascists removed. After a few goes, their attendance inexplicably dropped dramatically.

I'm very disappointed in the London marches in particular for the toxicity that they've let grow unchecked.

If you aren't in London and want to get involved, you could make contact with your local event organisers and ask them questions about their approaches to events, antisemitism, etc, to see if you'd feel comfortable.

There are also other ways to support calls for peace that don't involve marches or demonstrations or in-person events. Lots of charities are active in Palestine and in Israel, trying to provide support for everyone affected - every bit of support for their work is helping work towards peace and healing. There are lots, so you can look into them and hopefully find one or more that you'd feel comfortable supporting.