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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

There are good reasons for avoiding talk of this conflict in schools

281 replies

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 06:27

Schools in England accused of closing down debate on Israel-Gaza conflict https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/schools-england-accused-closing-down-debate-israel-gaza-conflict?CMP=share_btn_url

If we wish pupils to discuss this conflict in schools it should be added to history lessons as part of modern history with an unbiased appraisal of the complex nature of the middle East especially post WW2. As say discussion about WW1 or the Napoleonic wars the conflict should be put into context of wider global geopolitical pressures with a nuanced analysis with importantly no bias.

What we don't want and I think the article below implies are discussions where pupils get to rant about 'evil Israel' and a school sanctioned display of Palestinian solidarity which some children may feel will allow them to express anti Semitic sentiment. I could easily see a passionate class pupil lead discussion leading to some pupils saying the problem couk d be solved as not having Israel in the first place and criticise Britian in its role in the formation of Israel. We have to avoid this.

Teachers are right to not want to allow discussion on class where tanti Semitic or anti Israel views could be be openly expressed with little sanction. Schools have quite rightly very severe policies on discrimination and racism and it would be easy for the pupils or even a teacher to overstep the mark in these areas.

We also have to consider the feelings of Jewish and Muslim children who may feel they may be targets for bullying as a result of these 'discussions'.

I fully support school decisions to not allow formal discussion of this topic currently though we do discuss the events of October 7th and the resultant war in my home with the aid of reputable media and valid wider historical context.

Schools in England accused of closing down debate on Israel-Gaza conflict

Government adviser says teachers feel ill-equipped to talk about controversial topics but avoiding debate risks fuelling anger

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/schools-england-accused-closing-down-debate-israel-gaza-conflict?CMP=share_btn_url

OP posts:
Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 18:36

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2030-roadmap-for-uk-israel-bilateral-relations/2030-roadmap-for-uk-israel-bilateral-relations

Do you think children should be educated about maintaining our strong relationships with Israel Which is our current policy? We must remember when considering such debate Israel is our friend and we have stood by then for many years. I think this may be an unpalatable truth to many that wish a Palestine - Israel discussion to be an avenue of admonishment of Israel in our schools.

2030 roadmap for UK-Israel bilateral relations

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2030-roadmap-for-uk-israel-bilateral-relations/2030-roadmap-for-uk-israel-bilateral-relations

OP posts:
converseandjeans · 30/03/2024 18:35

@mids2019

I don't think a secondary school teacher will be able to reach a concerns view on the middle East when the world's best diplomats have failed for 40 years

Yes to this. It could go horribly wrong & teachers could be accused of being racist whichever view they support.

converseandjeans · 30/03/2024 18:32

@mids2019

you can't have both - maybe another reason teachers aren't queuing to pick this baton up.

Honestly we have enough going on trying to get through the curriculum & working on behaviour & mental health.

I work in a very diverse school & it's not an issue I would feel comfortable debating.

Teachers are supposed to remain politically neutral - well that's my understanding. So if you are expecting teachers to allow debates on issues it could cross a line.

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 18:23

@PocketSand

indeed we are lucky to live in the UK.

my point is that is self evident starving people is bad. A good teacher will make sure a child is educated enough to read say the BBC website where there is plenty of information about how international pressure is being brought in Israel. Reading the views of the UN and how for example US politics can be swayed is more valuable than a debate about something that is undebateable.

I don't think it is of value to have a group set up in school whose sole purpose is to criticise Israel or its military and that is what it appears people want - an expansion of protest into the school sphere.

There are those on this thread that imagine you can have a debate about the differences between Palestinians and Israelis where by education and recognizing other people's viewpoints you may get some enlightenment amongst students about the causes and means of cessation of this conflict.

there are others that think any debate such as this wrong as it is clear there is only one oppressive aggressor and the purpose of the 'debates' is simply to highlight Israel's response to October 7th and essentially just have a space to call out its actions.

you can't have both - maybe another reason teachers aren't queuing to pick this baton up.

OP posts:
PocketSand · 30/03/2024 18:08

So teachers should be able to say that starving children is bad. To make pupils feel they have value and are safe. Don't worry, this will never happen to you, international protocols will keep you safe even if the grown ups go to war.

But pupils should not be able to refer to the fact that the Isresli state is currently doing this because this might lead to criticism and bad feeling about the Israeli state. And this is not part of the curriculum and has no academic merit.

Take home - this could happen to you, your parents or your nationality or whatever could be deemed the enemy and then there are no bounds - if not now ...

CurlyWurly1991 · 30/03/2024 18:07

Can I ask to those advocating for no discussion or debate in schools on this topic - are there other topics that are also not OK to debate or would you say that this a uniquely dangerous/polarised issue?

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 17:59

@Parkingt111

you have given an example of why teachers would be loath to broach this subject at all.......It is so easy to offend and that offence to some may constitute a racial or religious prwjudice.

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Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 17:57

@Parkingt111

can teachers win with this?

I think there is a real danger you could put oil on the fire instead of smothering it by allowing a debate in c lass. A lot of pp have articulated the difficulties such A discussion may bring including how to deal with any expressions or views that may veer into hate speech territory.

I don't think a secondary school teacher will be able to reach a concerns view on the middle East when the world's best diplomats have failed for 40 years.

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Parkingt111 · 30/03/2024 17:56

She's also a quiet student who keeps her head down so it's not something she would speak up about and the teacher probably didn't even realise that she was upset.

Parkingt111 · 30/03/2024 17:48

What If these heated debates and discussiosn are already happening in the playground regarding the war? Would it still be best for the school to not address at all? I don't know about now but when i was a teenager we used to discuss current politics especially where it was a matter that we had personal links too.

I know one secondary school student who is a muslim and is part of a very small muslim minority in her school, telling me she was quite upset as one of her teachers spoke about it in class. But spoke about it in what she felt was very one sided without really acknowledging how the Palestinians have been affected. Ofcourse i wasn't there and its only her word but she's quite mature for her age so I don't think she would lie. It wasn't really a discussion though and just something the teacher made some comments on during one of the lessons.

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 17:36

Indent think that teachers stating that deliberately starving children is a bad thing because self evidently it is. I think there is limited purpose for a group of students stating the obvious unless it is to heighten feelings about the Israeli state. Again we come to the fact that any debate on schools should have academic merit and not be a means of protest no matter how justified the protestor feels his cause is.

There appears to be sentiment expressed here that justifies teachers stances on not wanting to host such debates at all as many feel there is no debate or discussion to be had and even the notion of debate would in itself be offensive.

It appears some want teachers to use their positions to openly condemn Israel and by not doing so they are displaying a moral cowardice? I worry about this (and I am not a teacher......don't envy them!)

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DancefloorAcrobatics · 30/03/2024 17:32

The trouble actually is that it rests entirely on the teacher's knowledge and understanding of words and how they're interpreted by different viewpoints

I couldn't have said it any better.

Sadly, by not wanting to ofend or being labelled this or that, we shut down genuine discussion. Children miss out on learning how to analyse political points and issues that will help in forming an opinion.

On the other hand, this conflict is very complex and its very difficult to stay impartial.

I know I have spoken to my teens about it. But always feel that without historical backround knowledge of the area and the people it is difficult to grasp.

PocketSand · 30/03/2024 17:28

@Soigneur ooh reds under the beds - are you or have you ever been Russian? I would hope they have better things to do than stoke paranoia.

Anyway, back to Israel/Gaza. Clearly the acts of Hamas in October were illegal and immoral. Clearly the acts prescribed by the Israeli government now are illegal and immoral. And disproportionate.

Children of all faiths in the UK and across the world are witnessing the unlawful killing and deliberate starvation of Palestinian children. And they can't make sense of it because there is no morality underpinning it. No discussion of complexity or context will ever make this understandable in any circumstances.

This is exactly why this discussion is pertinent in primary schools. What happens to innocent children when morality fails?

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 17:25

@christinarossetti19

I am sorry to hear of your experience and hope everything has worked out.

I think you have a very valid point that such protests undermine school authority and the ability of staff to Haitian discipline which is fundamental to the running of a school.

it would be easy to start a decline in school management of pupils realise they won't be disciplined for certain transgressions that are defined by school policy as where does this stop? Which disciplinary policies can be ignored at will and will pupils test their boundaries by ignoring more of them?

if a pupil is role by a staff member to stop doing something then the pupil should stop doing it under fear of disciplinary sanction. Allowing a protest if against the school 'a will undermines the school 'a authority immensely.

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TextureSeeker · 30/03/2024 17:24

snowbird21 · 30/03/2024 16:50

@TextureSeeker
I understand that you have strong feelings but so do other people which shows that they're two sides to this issue. For this reason its not clear cut and putting teachers in that position where there is such depth of feeling is not in my view advisable - students might disagree with the prevailing class view, what then, not all students are mature enough to agree to disagree.

Others have strong views that intentionally starving people to death is OK and you don't think teachers should have to say 'Mate, purposefully starving children to death is never ok'? If a student has really strong feelings that intentionally starving people to death is OK, I would hope teachers would refer them on to some kind of services to help them, I don't know what services you have in the UK but that's a very extremist viewpoint and would alarm bells here.

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 17:17

@CurlyWurly1991

it is important to appreciate view points that are different to your own but it must be done in a manner which does not incite discrimination or hate. I think there can be a fine line with this and it require a lot of judgment.

the problem with Gaza is that a viewpoint any be considered as an alternative point of view but by others as something akin to hate speech. You may get someone who justifies October 7th as resistance in a debate but can such an expression be allowed when there is such correct focus against violence against women and girls generally within our school system? Alternatively someone may state that indiscriminate bombing is justified if it has the result of killing at least some Hamas operatives no matter the civilian death toll. Is this a legitimate point of view or could it be viewed as Islamophobia in that the pupil appears to disregard Muslim lives?

the debate is so impassioned I think it should be avoided in schools unless someone was extremely well versed in policing debates.

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christinarossetti19 · 30/03/2024 17:12

Saying that school isn't the time or place isn't closing down debate. As pp say, it's about ensuring that students and staff feel and are safe.

I saw this go badly wrong at a school my dd used to attend. A couple of years ago, parents and carers received a text message advising that the school were aware that some pupils were planning a pro-Palestinian protest the next day and that they would not permit this in school.

Right approach, I thought, and when I dropped my child off, saw about 40 teens with Palestinian face paint and flags. My dd told me that they hadn't been prevented from running round the school shouting 'Free Palestine' and the like.

I moved my dd after that (not because of that, but related situation about poorly managed racism) and saw a news article end of last year featuring parents from the school who had gone to the press, angry that the school were no longer letting the students wear Pro-Palestine badges etc.

Inevitably, this weak leadership has led to huge divisions and conflicts within the school community, which has hemorrhaged staff and students.

What schools do need to take a strong line on is any sort of racism, and you can't do that if you're permitting 13 year olds to repeat whatever sound bites they've got from TikTok and pretend it's a debate.

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 17:01

@Scirocco

it may be that an accusation of prejudice against Palestinians would be made against any pupil in a discussion that out forward a view in support of Israel's right to self defence and so a school debate could quickly turn toxic with accusations of prejudice and discrimination within a lesson. I don't think teachers want that do you?

I think one of the dangers of school debate is that it would be very easy to cross a line where one pupil accused another of Islamaphobia or anti semitism and the school would have to deal with fact of potentially serious complaints. I don't think schools would wish to invite this.

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CurlyWurly1991 · 30/03/2024 16:58

gestroopd · 30/03/2024 16:37

She's not Jewish but she's a staunch supporter of Israel and hasn't wavered since the beginning - I know that because I've specifically asked as I wanted to keep an ear out for bullying or any meanness out of the teacher's sight. Apparently none. I agree it would be different if she was Jewish.

I have to say though that being Jewish doesn't mean you are to be protected from being upset. I think discussion can happen when it's set up properly and there's a zero tolerance for racism/xenophobia/anti-Muslim/anti-Jewish speech.

The trouble actually is that it rests entirely on the teacher's knowledge and understanding of words and how they're interpreted by different viewpoints. And no teacher wants to be accused of allowing "Islamophobia" or "anti-Semitism" in their classroom!

So I revise my point. IF a teacher is well-enough informed and/or able enough to properly set the rules of engagement and police them equally fairly, AND feels confident in dealing with any parental complaints (because they're not unbiased) then it could be good. But if a teacher isn't able to do that it's probably not worth the hassle.

And that's a great shame, because disagreeing respectfully over hard topics is a lesson for our children that would benefit all of us in the future!

Show quote history

I agree, it is so important to learn to be able to tolerate and listen to viewpoints different to our own. The echo chamber of social media/online news doesn’t facilitate this. In my view it’s what education is about ?

snowbird21 · 30/03/2024 16:57

@mids2019
I totally agree with you on that

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 16:56

@snowbird21

I think that not only there may be immaturity to the arguments but a real danger passions any be so inflamed that anyone voicing a view which runs contrary to the one that is perceived is right could lead to bullying or violence.

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Scirocco · 30/03/2024 16:55

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 16:43

@Scirocco

I think so yes. It is the dividing line between protest and debate.

A debate is by definition an exchange of views to come to a possible consensus on a correct viewpoint. Rhetoric can be used by either side to push their point in the issue.

One of the points I made earlier was that if you were take a position in this debate that Israel's response was justified and that a military means to disarm Hamas and rescue hostages was entirely justified depending on the cohort of students there may be a real chance the pupil would be targeted for reprisal.

I think we can't ignore the pupil safety aspect here (or staff)

Strange. Most of the abuse, hate speech and general rudeness I've encountered in relation to this humanitarian crisis has not been from people concerned about the rights and lives of Palestinians.

It really is coming across as you're quite prejudiced against people concerned for Palestinians, and that this would be the real motivation behind wanting to silence debate and discussion.

Original poster
mids2019 · 30/03/2024 16:54

@snowbird21

I think think at the source of the problem. Teachers especially those that are skilled in leading debates expect to lead a debate, to allow questioning and the expression of different views to gain understanding of the source of conflict. There are those that wish to allow simple protest which is different to debate. It may be wrong to hinder humanitarian aid to Gaza but it is not a schools duty to provide a platform for protest no matter how legitimate a parent or pupil thinks the cause is.

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Soigneur · 30/03/2024 16:51

@PocketSand let’s hope that MI5 are keeping a close watch on them then.

snowbird21 · 30/03/2024 16:50

@TextureSeeker
I understand that you have strong feelings but so do other people which shows that they're two sides to this issue. For this reason its not clear cut and putting teachers in that position where there is such depth of feeling is not in my view advisable - students might disagree with the prevailing class view, what then, not all students are mature enough to agree to disagree.