Page 5 | There are good reasons for avoiding talk of this conflict in schools

mids2019 · 2024-03-30T06:27:02+00:00

Schools in England accused of closing down debate on Israel-Gaza conflict [[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/schools-england-accused-closing-down-debate-israel-gaza-conflict?CMP=share_btn_url https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/schools-england-accused-closing-down-debate-israel-gaza-conflict?CMP=share_btn_url]] If we wish pupils to discuss this conflict in schools it should be added to history lessons as part of modern history with an unbiased appraisal of the complex nature of the middle East especially post WW2. As say discussion about WW1 or the Napoleonic wars the conflict should be put into context of wider global geopolitical pressures with a nuanced analysis with importantly no bias. What we don't want and I think the article below implies are discussions where pupils get to rant about 'evil Israel' and a school sanctioned display of Palestinian solidarity which some children may feel will allow them to express anti Semitic sentiment. I could easily see a passionate class pupil lead discussion leading to some pupils saying the problem couk d be solved as not having Israel in the first place and criticise Britian in its role in the formation of Israel. We have to avoid this. Teachers are right to not want to allow discussion on class where tanti Semitic or anti Israel views could be be openly expressed with little sanction. Schools have quite rightly very severe policies on discrimination and racism and it would be easy for the pupils or even a teacher to overstep the mark in these areas. We also have to consider the feelings of Jewish and Muslim children who may feel they may be targets for bullying as a result of these 'discussions'. I fully support school decisions to not allow formal discussion of this topic currently though we do discuss the events of October 7th and the resultant war in my home with the aid of reputable media and valid wider historical context.

Bennettsister · 30/03/2024 21:11

Scirocco · 30/03/2024 21:08

The idea that educational establishments would actively seek to prevent conversations around significant current affairs is so disappointing. Not allowing discussions only serves to reduce opportunities for pupils to access alternative viewpoints, to reduce opportunities for children to seek help and support from people who should be trusted adults in their lives, to reduce opportunities to apply critical thinking in challenging situations, and to reduce opportunities to identify and support children who might be experiencing trauma or be at risk of being drawn into extreme viewpoints.

My school doesn’t prevent talking about current affairs. It’s part of PSHE anyway - we have to! But we inform, educate, we don’t moralise and try to decide who’s right/wrong. That is not what a teacher does.

Comedycook · 30/03/2024 21:08

Faraway93 · 30/03/2024 19:55

@mids2019 students get taught about conflict all the time. They learn about WW1 and WW2, 9/11, the holocaust, etc. So why are we not talking about this conflict?

You want them to create a syllabus on an ever changing, ongoing situation?

Scirocco · 30/03/2024 21:08

The idea that educational establishments would actively seek to prevent conversations around significant current affairs is so disappointing. Not allowing discussions only serves to reduce opportunities for pupils to access alternative viewpoints, to reduce opportunities for children to seek help and support from people who should be trusted adults in their lives, to reduce opportunities to apply critical thinking in challenging situations, and to reduce opportunities to identify and support children who might be experiencing trauma or be at risk of being drawn into extreme viewpoints.

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 21:01

I think it’s obvious who the actual teachers are on this thread ..

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 21:00

Bennettsister · 30/03/2024 20:50

I think this whole thread is totally bizarre.
We teach lessons, we don’t indoctrinate.
If a Jewish child came into my lesson saying Israel had a right to defend itself I would respect their opinion. If a Muslim child came into my lesson saying they were appalled at what was happening in Gaza I’d respect that too.

However for either of these scenarios to take place I’d need to be saying in a lesson ‘so who do we think is right with regards to Israel gaza’
which or course is hugely unprofessional but also, perhaps more importantly, NOT OUR JOB.

As I said this is such a weird thread. We teach lessons not run debate clubs each period. (And when there are lunchtime debate clubs, they certainly wouldn’t pick Israel Gaza right now. Maybe in the future they would, who knows.)

💯

Bennettsister · 30/03/2024 20:57

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:52

@Bennettsister

I agree but there are those that would say you are stifling debate 🤷

I would say… but I’m here to teach history/politics/sociology and we have a syllabus to cover. I’m teaching for a qualification, not running a debate club.
If a child came into my lesson and said ‘can we discuss abortion?’ I’d say erm…no…we’re learning about ww2/the electoral college/etc today. Abortion, for example, is covered in RPE and PSHE. They certainly don’t debate it there but all opinions are presented and a teacher certainly wouldn’t give their view.
we teach post 1945 Middle East for gcse. Again factual, debate historical issues but our job isn’t too moralise.

We’re not stifling debate. We’re just doing our job which is educate.

again this really is a non issue. A bigger issue would be if a Jewish child was rude to a muslim
child or vice versa regarding Gaza. That’s a whole different kettle of fish and would be a pastoral issue.

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:57

Scirocco · 30/03/2024 20:36

And again, the antagonist in your proposed scenario is Muslim. Why is that? It's a recurring pattern, that you present Israelis and Jewish people as victims in need of protection and Palestinians and Muslims as threats. Why?

Personally, I want my DC to learn in an environment where professionals helping them learn are able to offer and facilitate educational opportunities for critical thinking and debate, as well as being able to recognise that, when children are experiencing a potentially frightening and confusing situation such as this, preventing discussion can be harmful to those children.

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With respect- teachers are faced with parents who share your view and parents who have a very different view.
If your children are frightened and confused you, as the parent, are by far the best person to discuss the issue with them. Discussion in a classroom context could end up being more frightening and confusing.

Scirocco · 30/03/2024 20:56

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:43

@Scirocco .

OK let's turn it around what if an Israeli supporting child entered the room with the preconceived notions that after October 7th Israel were had the right to prosecute their self defence with all means and civilian casualties were acceptable. If this was an entrenched view then how on earth do you get them to engage with the Muslim mentioned initially (or Palestinian supporter of you prefer). The point is the situation is so inflamed that reasoned discussion is extremely difficult without offense being taken.

Apologies for using a Muslim in the prior example as I could refer to anyone who is particularly passionate about the current conflict. I would say Hamas though were and are an obvious threat to Israel and surely eastbound feature in any debate.

Ok, so, the first question would be what age group is this? It's important to pitch things age-appropriately. That would also likely dictate the format - is this a school assembly, or a brief in-class session, or a voluntary/self-selected study session?

Also, what's the purpose of your last sentence?

JanewaysBun · 30/03/2024 20:55

Fwiw i thought that a lot of teaching of "Russia = bad /Ukraine = Good" was not the way forward. There wasn't enough done to specify that we meant specifically the regime/government in charge vs actual people. And the same for this conflict should apply.

My DGPs suffered quite badly in some "situations" in WWII, however very soon after the war (50s i think) they began taking youth groups on trips to (West) Germany. Because they didn't blame the general citizens and felt that building positive relationships with the "enemy" was the best way to maintain peace.

Original poster

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:52

@Bennettsister

I agree but there are those that would say you are stifling debate 🤷

OP posts:

Bennettsister · 30/03/2024 20:50

I think this whole thread is totally bizarre.
We teach lessons, we don’t indoctrinate.
If a Jewish child came into my lesson saying Israel had a right to defend itself I would respect their opinion. If a Muslim child came into my lesson saying they were appalled at what was happening in Gaza I’d respect that too.

However for either of these scenarios to take place I’d need to be saying in a lesson ‘so who do we think is right with regards to Israel gaza’
which or course is hugely unprofessional but also, perhaps more importantly, NOT OUR JOB.

As I said this is such a weird thread. We teach lessons not run debate clubs each period. (And when there are lunchtime debate clubs, they certainly wouldn’t pick Israel Gaza right now. Maybe in the future they would, who knows.)

Original poster

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:49

If a discussion becomes toxic between strangers on the internet between educated women does that not give people pause for thought about a discussion amongst impassioned teenagers in real life?

OP posts:

Dulra · 30/03/2024 20:49

@Limesodaagain I very much have young people from a affected communities

Original poster

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:48

@Scirocco

If we have a Palestinian deeply affected by events in the middle East personally will bearing about the Israeli perspective help I wonder? If the Palestinian had family that d I ed in Gaza would having someone facilitate in getting them to understand an Israeli perspective on this conflict in reality help or run salt into the wou nd?

I think there are many reasons for schools being remote from a very evocative conflict.

OP posts:

Dulra · 30/03/2024 20:48

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:44

I’m not sure how to respond to that ….
If adults in Mumsnet can’t keep it civil why do you think adolescents can?
Makes me wonder if you have a very different demographic - ( ie no young people from affected communities) or are inexperienced..

Edited

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How patronising. I work with teens and I can keep them on track and stick within the rules set for a discussion they're obviously not as toxic as those posting on mumsnet or maybe teenagers in Ireland are better able to discuss a contentious topic then their UK peers

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:44

Dulra · 30/03/2024 20:39

Just to add, boundaries would need to be set and yes you need good facilitation skills but give young people a bit of credit they are well capable of discussing and debating the topic without it getting out of hand

I’m not sure how to respond to that ….
If adults in Mumsnet can’t keep it civil why do you think adolescents can?
Makes me wonder if you have a very different demographic - ( ie no young people from affected communities) or are inexperienced..

Original poster

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:43

@Scirocco .

OK let's turn it around what if an Israeli supporting child entered the room with the preconceived notions that after October 7th Israel were had the right to prosecute their self defence with all means and civilian casualties were acceptable. If this was an entrenched view then how on earth do you get them to engage with the Muslim mentioned initially (or Palestinian supporter of you prefer). The point is the situation is so inflamed that reasoned discussion is extremely difficult without offense being taken.

Apologies for using a Muslim in the prior example as I could refer to anyone who is particularly passionate about the current conflict. I would say Hamas though were and are an obvious threat to Israel and surely eastbound feature in any debate.

OP posts:

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:41

Dulra · 30/03/2024 20:36

As I said I'm not familiar with the UK system, I'm bemused because current affairs was always discussed in schools in Ireland and the conflict in the middle east is part of that, I'm not familiar with the Batley case so will read up on it.
I don't think "minding your pronouns" should be as difficult as you appear to make out, ask the young person how they want to be addressed!
Teaching is not easy I am not a teacher but run various health and wellbeing programmes in very disadvantaged diverse schools in Dublin and I would struggle to keep the current conflict out of discussion, as I've said upthread it would just become the elephant in the room.

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“I would struggle to keep the current conflict out of discussion, as I've said upthread it would just become the elephant in the room.”

Would you also struggle to make sure that a person from a minority viewpoint in your group didn’t feel threatened or marginalised?

Dulra · 30/03/2024 20:39

Just to add, boundaries would need to be set and yes you need good facilitation skills but give young people a bit of credit they are well capable of discussing and debating the topic without it getting out of hand

Dulra · 30/03/2024 20:36

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:20

Honestly- I don’t understand why you are so bemused. The teacher from Batley is still in hiding three years later because he raised a taboo topic .
Im currently having to “ mind my pronouns “ when I teach .
Let’s not pretend it’s easy for teachers to wade into these waters ..

Show quote history

As I said I'm not familiar with the UK system, I'm bemused because current affairs was always discussed in schools in Ireland and the conflict in the middle east is part of that, I'm not familiar with the Batley case so will read up on it.
I don't think "minding your pronouns" should be as difficult as you appear to make out, ask the young person how they want to be addressed!
Teaching is not easy I am not a teacher but run various health and wellbeing programmes in very disadvantaged diverse schools in Dublin and I would struggle to keep the current conflict out of discussion, as I've said upthread it would just become the elephant in the room.

Scirocco · 30/03/2024 20:36

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:17

@Scirocco

I think learning about different cultures to promote understanding is entirely laudable but di you think this is the right time given the state of the conflict in Gaza.

Won't a Muslim child be in his or her rights to enter such a discussion with a view 'I don't give a sh&- about the Israeli perspective of this conflict as 30k Gazans lie dead, a hundred thousand injured and millions on the verge of famine as well as the obvious ruin of so many futures'. How would you get such a child to engage in the more holistic discussion you describe in reality?

With passions so inflamed allowing children to openly express opinion could just add fuel to the fire unfortunately in my opinion.

And again, the antagonist in your proposed scenario is Muslim. Why is that? It's a recurring pattern, that you present Israelis and Jewish people as victims in need of protection and Palestinians and Muslims as threats. Why?

Personally, I want my DC to learn in an environment where professionals helping them learn are able to offer and facilitate educational opportunities for critical thinking and debate, as well as being able to recognise that, when children are experiencing a potentially frightening and confusing situation such as this, preventing discussion can be harmful to those children.

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:23

And I know those two examples are unrelated- but “hot” topics of any sort can end up going badly wrong… and experienced teachers know that.

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:20

Dulra · 30/03/2024 20:08

I'm slightly bemused by this whole debate. I don't live in the UK so not massively familiar with your education system but do you not have subjects like civics, social and political education? Where subjects like the current conflict in Gaza would most definitely be covered. Do schools have no autonomy to decide for themselves what they do or don't want to forget discuss?

Honestly- I don’t understand why you are so bemused. The teacher from Batley is still in hiding three years later because he raised a taboo topic .
Im currently having to “ mind my pronouns “ when I teach .
Let’s not pretend it’s easy for teachers to wade into these waters ..

Original poster

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 20:17

@Scirocco

I think learning about different cultures to promote understanding is entirely laudable but di you think this is the right time given the state of the conflict in Gaza.

Won't a Muslim child be in his or her rights to enter such a discussion with a view 'I don't give a sh&- about the Israeli perspective of this conflict as 30k Gazans lie dead, a hundred thousand injured and millions on the verge of famine as well as the obvious ruin of so many futures'. How would you get such a child to engage in the more holistic discussion you describe in reality?

With passions so inflamed allowing children to openly express opinion could just add fuel to the fire unfortunately in my opinion.

OP posts:

Limesodaagain · 30/03/2024 20:15

Faraway93 · 30/03/2024 19:55

@mids2019 students get taught about conflict all the time. They learn about WW1 and WW2, 9/11, the holocaust, etc. So why are we not talking about this conflict?

9/11 wasn’t “taught” and there was real concern that it could increase Islamaphobic sentiment if we didn’t handle it carefully.
I don’t think it’s right to expect teachers to be able to manage such an emotional debate among young people from communities that are affected. If you were a teacher you would understand how easily it could spiral …