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Conflict in the Middle East

There are good reasons for avoiding talk of this conflict in schools

281 replies

mids2019 · 30/03/2024 06:27

Schools in England accused of closing down debate on Israel-Gaza conflict https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/schools-england-accused-closing-down-debate-israel-gaza-conflict?CMP=share_btn_url

If we wish pupils to discuss this conflict in schools it should be added to history lessons as part of modern history with an unbiased appraisal of the complex nature of the middle East especially post WW2. As say discussion about WW1 or the Napoleonic wars the conflict should be put into context of wider global geopolitical pressures with a nuanced analysis with importantly no bias.

What we don't want and I think the article below implies are discussions where pupils get to rant about 'evil Israel' and a school sanctioned display of Palestinian solidarity which some children may feel will allow them to express anti Semitic sentiment. I could easily see a passionate class pupil lead discussion leading to some pupils saying the problem couk d be solved as not having Israel in the first place and criticise Britian in its role in the formation of Israel. We have to avoid this.

Teachers are right to not want to allow discussion on class where tanti Semitic or anti Israel views could be be openly expressed with little sanction. Schools have quite rightly very severe policies on discrimination and racism and it would be easy for the pupils or even a teacher to overstep the mark in these areas.

We also have to consider the feelings of Jewish and Muslim children who may feel they may be targets for bullying as a result of these 'discussions'.

I fully support school decisions to not allow formal discussion of this topic currently though we do discuss the events of October 7th and the resultant war in my home with the aid of reputable media and valid wider historical context.

Schools in England accused of closing down debate on Israel-Gaza conflict

Government adviser says teachers feel ill-equipped to talk about controversial topics but avoiding debate risks fuelling anger

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/schools-england-accused-closing-down-debate-israel-gaza-conflict?CMP=share_btn_url

OP posts:
Limesodaagain · 01/04/2024 14:50

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I do work in a school and I don’t believe that having a discussion of the sort you describe would stop them spreading rumours and damaging misinformation or whipping up outrage against a minority view. It’s too volatile a topic and adolescents are often naturally volatile anyway.
I don’t know if you are a teacher- but have you considered the different classroom contexts across the country. In some schools there are large numbers of Muslim students who may have family members in Gaza. How can you expect them to conduct a reasoned and respectful discussion with people who hold alternative views? What about the one Muslim or Palestinian origin / or Jewish child in a class of people who hold different views? Is it fair to do that?
These are not politicians - they won’t necessarily have the tools to manage a topic that is so emotive if they have personal family involvement.
In my view - the best approach ( if in a religious school) is to offers prayers in assemblies for all who are suffering and prayers that truth and justice will prevail The prayers could be offered from representatives of all religions present.
I accept this doesn’t offer anything for atheists but maybe a Humanist reflection could also be offered.

Limesodaagain · 01/04/2024 14:35

mids2019 · 01/04/2024 13:23

I am absolutely in support of mental health support being offered his students who have seen images they feel disturbing but would draw a line on a classroom debate where where it would so rapidly slide into a heated discussion where anti Muslim or new rhetoric couk d be voiced with all its serious consequences.

yes the conflict is about land but the GCSE syllabus (or other courses) admit this but you have a respectful nuanced discussion about the relative merits of territorial claims by Israel and Palestine in my view. Not do students want that I think they want a space to protest, to air their disgust at the imagery they are facing but I really don't think a school should facilitate that collectively .

Absolutely this

twinklestar10 · 01/04/2024 13:31

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twinklestar10 · 01/04/2024 13:28

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mids2019 · 01/04/2024 13:23

I am absolutely in support of mental health support being offered his students who have seen images they feel disturbing but would draw a line on a classroom debate where where it would so rapidly slide into a heated discussion where anti Muslim or new rhetoric couk d be voiced with all its serious consequences.

yes the conflict is about land but the GCSE syllabus (or other courses) admit this but you have a respectful nuanced discussion about the relative merits of territorial claims by Israel and Palestine in my view. Not do students want that I think they want a space to protest, to air their disgust at the imagery they are facing but I really don't think a school should facilitate that collectively .

OP posts:
mids2019 · 01/04/2024 13:10

@twinklestar10

how do you lead such a debate in such an emotive atmosphere without possibly inducing anger which would be inappropriate in a school?

I can imagine a debate as such:

Teacher: 'We are hear to discuss in a respectful manner the current situation in Gaza within its historical context. Since the inception of the state of Israel in 1948 there has been a series of conflict with Arab populations with competing territorial demands. We now see the current manifestation of this conf.....

enraged stident: 'Miss stop talking about history and look at this time too video there are literally children starving NOW. Look at this child's wounds and stop pontificating on middle East history.....AARGH!'

how would you go about leading such a discussion on classrom? What questions would you ask the class and how would you frame the de bate?

OP posts:
twinklestar10 · 01/04/2024 12:45

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Withdrawn at poster's request

twinklestar10 · 01/04/2024 12:44

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mids2019 · 01/04/2024 04:32

I don't think this can be stated enough.

Schools have to be safe for children. Teachers have a duty of care for the safety and mental health of their pupils.

It only takes one child to feel ostracized or a potential target for verbal or physical attack due to the content of these debates to make it a no go for me.

OP posts:
mids2019 · 01/04/2024 03:38

@MissyB1

if kids want a debate how about about pointing then to texta (such as the GCSE upthreqd to prepare them for debate and to contextualize the current phase of conflict.

I don't think there would be many takers then because you be requiring the children to do work and be prepared for critical analysis. A lot of the children wanting 'debate' possibly have preconcived ideas about Israel and the conflict with Arab people's and territorial claims that would run counter to what a school would teach in an objective fashion.

the kids don't want 'debate' they want protest.

OP posts:
mids2019 · 01/04/2024 03:33

@LolaSmiles

completely agree with your sensible comments.

I think there is an element of faux naivity from those that want 'debate' about Gaza in the classroom from those who think it would be welcome to debate a 'hot' topic with the aim of seeing if there is there is a 'right' or 'wrong' or 'a route to common understanding'. I think common understanding is important generally but this really is not the time for sensitive debates of this kind where we are seeing humanity at its worst really.

OP posts:
mids2019 · 01/04/2024 03:17

I am in favour of free speech but we could easily find a huge number of issues about the current conflict in Gaza which you could regard as undebatable or causing offence bordering on allowing hate speech.

for instance:

were the actions of October 7th justifiable? (Given the huge efforts schools put into combating violence against women and girls you can see immediately how this should not be brought up as some kind of question where yes would be given as a pupil)

Is the starvation of Palestinians justifiable in the context of overall war aims (again if yes was given as an answer by a pupil then we have to ask questions about how that answer can be allowed in a sanctioned school lesson)

Does Israel have the right to exist? A pupil may raise the existence of the modern state of Israel as the root cause of the conflict and by raising this question as a 'debating' point the pupil by definition would be using anti Semitic speech and presumably would be subject to school disciplinary policies in this area.

Is Israel an 'arpartheid' state? Government guidelines generally are that is anti Semitic to refer to Israel in these terms so again we could easily being anti-Semitic sentiment into the class room.

This is not about avoiding 'hurt feelings' or offence but very real harm being brought to pupils or the real prospect of language being used in a class room that would be deemed discriminatory under school policy. We already have examples in this country of teachers living under fear because of ill judged comments on religion so it would be extremely foolish to have debates where an ill considered comment on an extremely contentious area could lead to staff and pupils being targets.

Again those that are agitating for these 'debates' at this current time are not looking for an Oxford Union type debate in my opinion where there is erudite discussion about the minutae of UN resolutions or the Balfour declaration taking into consideration the complex geopolitics of the region as summarised bthe GCSE syllabus above. Pupils are wanting a space in a school classroom where they can effectively vent feelings about the IDF, the Israeli cabinet and by extension Israel. There are pupils who simply want protest to be extended into the classroom and their teachers affirming their views by making the school take a political stance.

How on earth are teachers going to take this on??????

I noticed that not many posters are saying a discussion couk d be held in the context of a GCSE syllabus in this area (which I presume is what a school may do if they want to go down this a route). Why? The GCSE syllabus adds 'complexity' to the debate (it's a pretty long syllabus)and those wanting to debate don't want 'complexity' as I have the real feeling that some view the current situation in Gaza as not complex and to suggest is complex in itself would just lead to offence.

Teachers are will get the proverbial barge pole out and even then won't touch this.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 31/03/2024 21:12

What if it’s the kids wanting the debate?That’s what happened at ds school, teacher was confident enough to roll with it. These are year 10 so 14/15 year olds.
In a few years they will be at Uni, no harm in hearing things they might not agree with or that makes them feel uncomfortable. Maybe just maybe they might learn something or see things from a different perspective?
Thinking on my experiences I'd say:

My job is to teach them, not have whatever debates the students want to have.

Any teacher who has been in the classroom more than 5 minutes will have heard complaints about not wanting to write an essay or "are we doing something fun today?" which translates as "are you going to give us a doss lesson?". The trick is that the students actually want a member of staff who is friendly and calmly in control, not a member of staff who is a weathervane.

Not everyone who is confident at doing those sorts of discussions is necessarily competent at it.

The most competent colleagues I've known who can handle challenging debates are not the colleagues who tended to get dragged into impromptu debates.

Those of us who are competent at managing difficult topics and discussions will tend to have a sense of collective responsibility to not set our colleagues up for "but Mr Smith allowed us to debate (Topic) in his lesson". Why would I want to do something that creates issues for my colleagues?

Limesodaagain · 31/03/2024 17:18

Responsible adults try to make sure the next generation are free from the toxicity they had to endure. And that includes this terrible conflict

Limesodaagain · 31/03/2024 17:11

I’m honestly tired of this . I know where I stand and it’s with the children I teach who are sad, frightened and angry . I don’t want them to turn against each other. I want them to know they are all good and worthy of respect.

Limesodaagain · 31/03/2024 17:07

MissyB1 · 31/03/2024 16:23

What if it’s the kids wanting the debate? That’s what happened at ds school, teacher was confident enough to roll with it. These are year 10 so 14/15 year olds. In a few years they will be at Uni, no harm in hearing things they might not agree with or that makes them feel uncomfortable. Maybe just maybe they might learn something or see things from a different perspective?
We hear about Universities where people are getting “cancelled” because some students can’t handle different opinions. I find that worrying.

So all the children wanted the debate- or just the dominant group? I’m uncomfortable with things being cancelled and I’m not a fan of encouraging over sensitivity… but we’re not talking about the sensitivity over gender identity- we are talking about people being slaughtered ( on both sides) Let’s not pretend that’s an easy debate with teenagers 🙄

MonkeyHarold · 31/03/2024 16:39

gestroopd · 30/03/2024 06:47

My child goes to a religious school where the teachers are practicing and there are a lot of Muslim children, some have fled war themselves. There is also a German girl in class (Germany is a radical supporter of Israel). There have been discussions in class. Rather than ban it, her teacher has monitored it and from Day 1 made extremely clear that EVERYBODY is allowed their opinion and it's ok to think differently. What's absolutely unacceptable is to be disrespectful.

It has worked very well. It also defused it somewhat by normalising the topic and not making it a forbidden topic by banning it! The children are learning very valuable lessons about respectfully disagreeing. They respectfully disagree and then all go off and play in their normal groups at play time (the political division cuts across friendship groups).

Re your post though. I criticise the British government, the French government, the US government and the German government in my political discussions. I criticise the Egyptian, Saudi and Jordanian governments too. I'm not anti-Muslim, anti-Christian or anti-secular anti-EU, anti-British or anti-North American. If I criticise the Israeli government, I'm not anti-Jewish. A government is a political body.

It's also insulting and anti-Jewish to imply that Judaism supports what the political entity of Israel is doing to civilians under its occupation now. Judaism does not support this.

My avoidance of the term Semitic is not anti-Jewish either. It's for precision. Not all Semites are Jewish (far from it), just like not all Jewish people are Israeli or all Israelis support what is happening in their name (when they're actually told the truth). Accuracy is important in this.

Antisemitism means the hatred towards and prejudice against Jewish people and Jewish people alone.
The word antisemitism is taken from 'antisemitismus', a pseudo-scientific name for Jew hatred. This term was coined by a German journalist, Wilhelm Marr in around 1879. He and others, believed that all Jews belonged to 'the Semitic race'. However, Semitic does not refer to a group of people, but is a linguistic term that refers to a group of languages traditionally spoken in the Middle East and parts of Africa, including Amharic, a language spoken in Ethiopia, as well as Hebrew and Arabic.
The unhyphenated spelling, 'antisemitism' rather than 'anti-Semitism', is preferred in order to dispel the idea that there is an entity “Semitism” which “anti-Semitism” opposes. Antisemitism should be read as a unified term so that the meaning of the generic term for modern Jew-hatred is clear.
It is accurate to use the word antisemitism to describe Jew hatred because that's precisely what it means. Even without an explanation, an Internet search will tell you what antisemitism means.
@gestroopd you don't have to use the term antisemitism. However, to say the term means anything other than solely Jew hatred, is in itself antisemitic.
https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/religious-prejudice-antisemitism
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/spelling-antisemitism
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

Spelling of antisemitism - IHRA

Antisemitism vs anti-Semitism – a hyphen can make a difference. Learn about why the unhyphenated spelling is preferred by experts in the field.

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/spelling-antisemitism

MissyB1 · 31/03/2024 16:23

Comedycook · 31/03/2024 16:15

This is easy to say when you're not the upset or offended child.

I'd much rather my child have teachers who are sensitive to their feelings than one who gets up on their soapbox and insists on a debate.

What if it’s the kids wanting the debate? That’s what happened at ds school, teacher was confident enough to roll with it. These are year 10 so 14/15 year olds. In a few years they will be at Uni, no harm in hearing things they might not agree with or that makes them feel uncomfortable. Maybe just maybe they might learn something or see things from a different perspective?
We hear about Universities where people are getting “cancelled” because some students can’t handle different opinions. I find that worrying.

Comedycook · 31/03/2024 16:15

MissyB1 · 31/03/2024 15:09

I don’t think we should get over paranoid about this. If we constantly worried about kids getting upset or offended there would be no discussion or debate in schools.

This is easy to say when you're not the upset or offended child.

I'd much rather my child have teachers who are sensitive to their feelings than one who gets up on their soapbox and insists on a debate.

AliceA2021 · 31/03/2024 15:35

Limesodaagain · 31/03/2024 15:16

Hmm … You do know how social media can blow up the “ offence” ? It’s all very well to say let’s just allow debate but teachers have to deal with the fall out. And I want my pupils to feel safe and respected.

Indeed.

Chikdren spouting stuff from social media, goodness tic toc and x are cesspools are made up rubbish and hatred, what could possibly go wrong 🤔

Limesodaagain · 31/03/2024 15:16

MissyB1 · 31/03/2024 15:09

I don’t think we should get over paranoid about this. If we constantly worried about kids getting upset or offended there would be no discussion or debate in schools.

Hmm … You do know how social media can blow up the “ offence” ? It’s all very well to say let’s just allow debate but teachers have to deal with the fall out. And I want my pupils to feel safe and respected.

MissyB1 · 31/03/2024 15:09

mids2019 · 31/03/2024 08:34

@MissyB1

who makes the call though? Is this a decision for the head of governing body or do individual teachers make the decision (not that they really have time)?

There Is a real danger of a teacher or pupil saying the wrong thing in such an emotive and divisive topic that they could end up on a sticky wicket professionally or from a disciplinary perspecrive.

if the school gets complaints (which they may very well do) I would make sure who is accountable and how decisions were made in this.

I don’t think we should get over paranoid about this. If we constantly worried about kids getting upset or offended there would be no discussion or debate in schools.

Dulra · 31/03/2024 11:58

I think this thread is going round in circles and getting repetitive. The majority agree that debating the issue in schools is unwise but also acknowledge that the issue may need to be addressed if it comes up as an issue in the school community that is having a negative impact on students. In my experience working with teens it is often local issues that creep into schools that can lead to unrest among students and schools are in the main very good at dealing with it.

mids2019 · 31/03/2024 11:57

@Faraway93

here we go

https://schoolhistory.co.uk/edexcel-gcse/conflict-in-the-middle-east-1945-95/

I guess the syllabus may need updating. It would be interesting to get an Israeli and Palestinian view of the curriculum because I guess both would pick it apart for inaccuracies but that's politics.

I think someone not great said they had attempted to teach middle East modern history but they have up as it was so contreversial.

If this is the case how on earth are you supposed to have school discussions not based on an acceptable d syllabus at this time of extreme tension and feeling?

Conflict The Middle East 1945–95 | Edexcel GCSE History 9-1 Resources

Conflict in the Middle East, 1945–95 Edexcel GCSE History 9-1 Lesson Resources. Created by experienced teacher Nichola Boughey and available to use today. Resources covering every module for the latest GCSE standards. Includes Powerpoint lesson plans,...

https://schoolhistory.co.uk/edexcel-gcse/conflict-in-the-middle-east-1945-95

OP posts:
Comedycook · 31/03/2024 11:54

mids2019 · 31/03/2024 11:49

@Faraway93 .

I think someone mentioned that post 1945 middle East politics was part of GCSE syallbuses.

My grandfather served in WW2 in what I believe was the Palestinian mandate and he had apparently a lot of recollections of his time there and the people. It's an interesting part of global history and I am sure worthy of academic study.

I remember studying the middle east and Israel in GCSE history. It was definitely one of the modules.

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