To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

Yep. I'm one of the people saying that I never saw evidence of it, and that there are grave concerns that my fellow healthcare workers are being targeted.

I gave a pretty clear example the other day, @Alexandra2001 , of two healthcare workers having been executed. I was basically told I was lying, that they were probably terrorists, to have empathy for the poor soldiers who bravely tied them up and shot them.

Far braver people than me have gone to the media to share these points and have been dismissed and minimised.

I'm afraid I absolutely do not believe this. Being a western doctor means little to me. Josef Mengele was a western doctor...it's not an identity which makes you beyond dishonesty 8r even partipation in wrongdoing. Which is an illustration, not an accusation. Certainly I see and hear western people EVERY DAY who happily say they fully support Hamas.

The evidence of my eyes and ears tells me that Hamas' terror network is threaded through all of the Gaza Strip, in every sense, and that sites and institutions which should have been neutral and uninvolved, were anything but. You all don't need to agree. But I stand by my assessment.

Germans also went through a long and laborious of de-nazification.

A school curriculum was introduced to de-program children from Jew hatred, and organisations, institutions and workplaces were re-educated and people were taught that the ideas of Nazis were unacceptable and racist.

@statsfun Maybe they will limit Hamas capability, though past military actions never did.

There is also the West bank to consider and islamist groups in southern lebanon.

So what you re saying is Israel will have to have an occupying presence in Gaza or Hamas will once again be free to re arm?

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.

But my bet is Israel will de populate Gaza and/or never allow a comprehensive rebuild of the area.

I think the poster @Scirocco was agreeing with you and being ironic with her
But, apparently we're all liars. comment

No not liars, thats not a helpful response, if the IDF are correct, then independent evidence needs to be provided.

The trouble is, anyone can place a few guns against a scanner with no power and then say "look over here - Hamas HQ"

If senior British consultants who have worked in the Hospital over several years, inc post 7/10, say they saw no evidence of Hamas involvement, why is that discounted?

UK doctors are not Hamas and neither is the CEO of MSF, who said yesterday that IDF is deliberately targeting Aid Workers.

btw i wouldn't believe a word Hamas or their backers say, total hypocrites, condemning Israeli strikes on Damascus but backing 7/10.

The actions the Israelis have taken against leading Iranian and Hamas figures abroad, is exactly the sort of action they need to do, instead of a somewhat indiscriminate campaign in Gaza.

My previous post is in response to this one, answering about Israel's aims and the futility or not of removing Hamas given that they will get new young recruits.

Taking out a substantial proportion of Hamas 30,000-40,000 strong army (either through killing or detention), destroying their tunnels and HQs and confiscating the substantial weapons they've smuggled in over the last 15 years absolutely will hugely reduce their capability to harm Israel. Assassinating their experienced leaders will set Hamas back 20 years.

Yes, new young recruits will join. But it will take time for them to become effective. Much more time than if the existing army and infrastructure was still been in place, in fact. And make no mistake, many would have joined anyway: we can see from history (before Israel was even a state) that this radicalisation happens regardless of what Israel do.

They may actually never become so effective again since I expect that Israel will have a much tighter security situation after this war, and will never allow the militant capability to build up so much again.

I suspect Israel have resigned themselves to perpetual damage limitation. And removing terrorist capability as it appears does achieve that.

Amnesty and HRW have explicitly stated that they found no evidence of Hamas using human shields. This is the 3rd paragraph from the wiki page you linked to.

Amnesty International investigated claims made by Israel in the 2008–2009 Gaza War and the 2014 Gaza War that Hamas employed human shields, but found no evidence of such usage. In their report on the 2008-2009 war, Amnesty said that "contrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials" that it had found no evidence of Hamas directing civilians to shield military assets or that it had forced civilians to remain in or near buildings used by fighters. Amnesty found that Hamas has launched rockets from near civilian locations, which it said endangered civilians and amounted to a violation of the requirement that Hamas take all necessary precautions to protect civilians from military action, but that this does not constitute shielding under international law.[9] In 2014, Amnesty said, regarding repeated allegations by Israel of Hamas using civilians as human shields, that it "does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to 'shield' specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks." They also said that Hamas urging residents to ignore Israeli warnings to evacuate “are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as ‘human shields’ for fighters, munitions, or military equipment.”[7] Human Rights Watch also said they found no evidence that Hamas had used human shields in the 2009 conflict.[10]

The claims by NATO were made by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence which is a NATO accredited think tank but does not form part of the NATO Command Structure. Their report relied heavily on reports from IDF soldiers and Israeli press.

This is how Politico described them in 2017.

"The center also hosts lectures on the evolving discipline of strategic communications, which can fairly be described as the art and science of weaponizing information and disrupting disinformation."

https://www.politico.eu/article/latvias-fortress-think-tank/#:

Amnesty did find evidence of the IDF using Palestinian civilians as human shields, this is documented in their, Operation Cast Lead: 22 days of death and destruction, report. Their information came from interviews with civilians in Gaza. Several interviews with former IDF soldiers, documented by Breaking the Silence, support their claims.

The EU accused Hamas of using human shields but did not offer a source for their claim. The wording of the AP headline suggests AP we're unable to substantiate the EU's claims.

https://apnews.com/article/european-union-condemn-hamas-human-shields-2c0d1c04cb38fc4acce37d8d624e1a3f

The UN Secretary General made a similar assertion but again the source of this information is not supplied.

https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-11-06/secretary-generals-press-conference-the-middle-east

@Alexandra2001 a few ak47s 'stored' next to an MRI scanner at that.

MRI scanners contain pretty big magnets (the 'M' in MRI). AK47s, like most guns, contain metal. That would be a less than ideal place to store metal objects.

But, apparently we're all liars. Because reasons. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@LemonyTicket Numerous Western Doctors, include some eminent British consultants have worked at Al Shifa and have all said they have never seen any terrorist involvement at the Hospital.

So far Israel has not produced any evidence that Al Shifa is a main Hamas HQ, just a few ak47s and hand grenades.

I've no doubt Hamas will use any facility to try and hide from the IDF but is the cost to ordinary Gazans worth the destruction? as ultimately, Hamas isn't going away, no amount of bombing or death will "destroy" Hamas, with a 2 million population, mainly young, Hamas have an inexhaustible supply of new recruits.

I just don't get what Israel's strategic aims are, they wont destroy Hamas, all they are doing atm is turning their Western backers against them and more importantly, making this campaign a recruiting sergeant for Palestinians to turn against Israel.

Only 2500 Israelis killed since 2000. Oh and the 1200 more killed on October 7th. But let's not worry about them, eh?

And the tens of thousands of missiles launched at Israel.

And the large scale evacuations from areas of the country suffering bombing campaigns (100,000 currently displaced from the north. It's all the same war).

And the safe room every Israeli has in their house. And regular bomb drills in schools. And regular air raid sirens when their defence system is destroying an incoming bomb over their cities, when everyone runs for shelter.

And the constant risk of a random person coming up and stabbing you or shooting you in your car - because every civilian is a target, all the time.

The huge cost both financial and human which is how Israel have kept indiscriminate terrorist murders of their citizens down to only a few hundred a year.

And the 6 full scale wars prior to that.

Just stop minimizing @Kindatired. You're being ridiculous.

Thank you for making that all clear, and I don’t disagree. I was thinking of the Marshall Plan though.

I was saying that I don’t think the orphans of the new way of life that developed in Germany after the war were likely to want to become suicide bombers to avenge themselves against the allies, in the same way that subjugated Palestinian orphans might, (even if the German youth did culturally believe in martyrdom and suicide through bombing an enemy, which they wouldn’t). This was in reply to something another poster had said.

“On April 3, 1948, President Truman signed the Economic Recovery Act of 1948. It became known as the Marshall Plan, named for Secretary of State George Marshall, who in 1947 proposed that the United States provide economic assistance to restore the economic infrastructure of postwar Europe”
www.archives.gov › marsha...
Marshall Plan (1948) | National Archives

Germany was supported not persecuted and was no longer the enemy.

Can I ask, where did you get that information from. Because that is absolutely not true. It’s been a long time since I’ve read about post war Europe, but a quick Google search tells me that:

• Germany had to surrender, unconditionally.

• Germany was decentralised and demilitarised. It had to accept democracy.

• It’s heavy industry economy was forced to become a combination of agriculture and light domestic industry.

• Germany was split up into 4 zones after the war, and occupied.

• Germany lost territory, was reduced in size and its eastern border was shifted west, falling under Polish control. About 15 million ethnic Germans living in this territory were forced to leave, suffering terrible conditions during their expulsion. Many froze or starved to death on over-crowded trains, while others were subject to forced labor camps by the Allies.

• The Nuremberg trials were held.

• They were assessed to pay reparations of $3 billion.

I could really go on. They weren’t supported. Less so those that happened to be on the Eastern side of the Wall.

The reason that the fighting didn’t go on after the war, wasn’t because Germany was “supported” (which it wasn’t), nor was it supported after WW1, it was because they were forced to surrender - surrender or die. And if they hadn’t surrendered, the Allies would have kept killing them until they did. That did happen. But they eventually surrendered.

In Germany alone 20 million people were homeless. The country was reduced to rubble. There were millions of displaced persons wandering around the countryside. Families were wiped out. The destruction is really hard to comprehend. The Germans had rebuild their lives before - after WW1 and the Great Depression that ravaged it after that - and they did so again. And so did all of Europe, not because anyone was “supported”, but because enough blood had been spilled. Enough damage had been done. Enough horrors had taken place. No one wanted to fight anymore, people just wanted to live. In peace. And they did. And it has been a gift to the future generations of Europe.

@statsfun
The 7/10 attacks happened against a backdrop of security failures on many levels. It is not likely that this type of attack will ever succeed again for Hamas.

According to OOCHA, from 2008-23 , there were 329 Israeli fatalities which included 185 civilians (94 of whom were settlers ) and 134 Israeli forces.

So about 1600 fatalities in this time period and the number that Hamas wants to kill is 6 million.

This is really bad but it’s not an existential threat for Israel.

Suicide as martyrdom is absolutely not in the Western tradition luckily; nor did any of the WW11 children, orphans or otherwise, from England, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Japan etc find themselves in a fight against each other after the war. Germany was supported not persecuted and was no longer the enemy.

Dreadful though they were, there were not as many Palestinian child suicide bombers as there were orphans. Bur no doubt many joined Hamas and many more will follow in their footsteps now.

At least 17,000 children, or one per cent of Gaza's overall displaced population of 1.7 million, are thought to be orphaned in the Gaza Strip, according to an estimate from Unicef 7 Feb 2024
www.telegraph.co.uk › gaz...

'They've lost everything': What now for Gaza's 17000 orphans?

Nothing you've said there is evidence of established bases of operations in hospitals pre-7/10. Nor of widespread complicity of healthcare professionals (now, I've not experienced it personally, but if an armed man got into a vehicle I was driving and told me to drive, I'd probably drive rather than refuse and get shot) justifying disproportionate targeting of them. Nor of why it would be acceptable to tie people up and then shoot them.

There is an absolute plethora of evidence that Hamas uses human shields in various ways. We have all seen with our own eyes terrorists attacking and then jumping into ambulances to get a ride away in safety, we have all seen "doctors" in hospital shown clearly in other videos with weapons in Hamas uniforms, we have all seen rocket launchers poking out of windows in schools, we have all seen it @Scirocco

It is also widely reported on by Amnesty, NATO, HRW, and global press. Most of whom are no friends of Israel. The wikipedia entry on this cites dozens of sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas#cite_note-:03-3

As for "can you stop and check during a firefight?", it's probably a bit more boring to stop, detain and check than it is to stop, tie up and execute, but it probably takes about the same amount of time.

I'm guessing that Caterham is using what happened in the 2014 war to try to imply that the complex has been used since then by Hamas. During the 2014 war, large parts of the complex were abandoned and subsequently used as de facto bases of operations by Hamas. There was also a report that was published by Amnesty International in relation to torture and murder by Hamas during that time. Bodies were brought (and removed) from the morgue.

There is a large basement sublevel. Which was initially built by Israelis in the 1990s.

Multiple healthcare professionals have confirmed that, with unrestricted access to the hospital, they have not come across any evidence of a pre-7/10 Hamas base. But, you know, clearly people who would potentially face professional ruin for making false accusations are just making it up to be mean.

But there really is no doubt that Al-Shifa is a Hamas base
It hasn't been independently verified one way or the other yet, so yes there is doubt.

a hospital that is used as a military base
I have asked this question a few times. If the IDF were confident the hospital was being used as a military base why did they not secure it back in November? Why did they leave it to be re-occupied by Hamas? I have no idea why the military would do that, it makes no sense whatsoever

There is room for reasonable disagreement on many things, but there really is no doubt that Al-Shifa is a Hamas base. This is widely reported and accepted. There have been photographs published showing extensive tunnels under the hospital. No doubt you will say that anything the sneaky Jews produce as evidence is false, but many other publications have verified this as well. Years ago Amnesty reported the torture chambers under the hospital where Hamas’s political rivals were detained and tortured. But maybe it’s only true if the victims are Palestinians eh?

Secondly, Hamas are a terrorist group but they are a terrorist group who run the state. It is inconceivable that a hospital that is used as a military base is unknown by the hospital authorities. Not every hospital worker or medical professional of course. But as an example, how about Ahmed Kahlot, director of Kamal Adwan hospital and a Hamas commander?

Hospital workers have said they are a “target” for the IDF. That’s not evidence that the IDF are deliberately killing hospital workers they know to be innocent. Hospital staff are operating in a climate of fear in which Hamas will use hospital workers and uniforms as cover for their terrorism, so of course anyone with a medical uniform is potentially a target. It’s unspeakable. And can you really stop-and-check people during a firefight?

So, what did you mean by your question previously?

@CaterhamReconstituted a few points.

Firstly, you say with certainty that you know Hamas use hospitals in the ways you've mentioned. How? What evidence have you seen that makes you so certain? What evidence do you have that supersedes accounts of people who have been in these buildings that they have seen no signs of this being an established modus operandi?

Secondly, on what basis are you essentially accusing healthcare professionals of being Hamas members or supporters? Given that many professionals working in those hospitals are actually citizens of countries in which Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation, that's a very serious allegation. If you don't have actual evidence of membership, you might want to consider the harm that false allegations can cause.

Thirdly, let's assume there is a situation in which someone is concerned that a healthcare professional or even just someone who's saying they're a healthcare professional might be affiliated in some capacity or might present a risk. I don't know about you, but in my experience, what tends to happen in most conflicts is a stop-search-check process or brief detention to verify details. That tends not to involve tying someone's hands behind their backs and executing them.

Fourthly, healthcare professionals are telling the world that they and their colleagues are being targeted and executed. This isn't something coming from a propaganda outlet. These are professionals who would stand to lose decades-long careers if they made this up. What is it that means you think they're/we're lying?

Finally, you make a lot of very confident claims about what Hamas does, what the IDF don't do, and so on. You're now suggesting that I "wake up" to the reality of this situation. So, I ask you - How many conflict zones, disaster relief operations and major incidents have you worked in? How many hospitals in Gaza have you personally visited and walked round? How much personal knowledge do you have of working in that setting?

I sympathise with anyone who has lost friends. I obviously can’t comment on any specific individuals. But we know that Hamas use hospitals to wage war. They store weapons there, they launch missiles from there, they have their tunnels underneath there. Just take a moment to consider how despicable that is. This is designed to maximise civilian deaths. Hamas intend for the Palestinian people to be killed. They care more about killing Jews than about the lives of their own people. They welcome death as a route to an afterlife in paradise. They know that any civilian deaths can be used as a further weapon against Israel by edging them closer to pariah status with every image of a child’s body.

The IDF had a two-week firefight at Al-Shifa - it is implausible that they were simply there knowingly shooting innocent doctors and healthcare workers. We also know that Hamas have embedded themselves in all of Gaza’s social structures. Many senior people in hospitals are likely to be members or supporters of Hamas.

Innocent people will have died at the hands of the IDF - but that exactly the point. This is what Hamas intends to happen. Also think about how difficult it is for the IDF to avoid civilian deaths. You can’t take anything on trust. They don’t know if a person in a medical uniform is an innocent person.

Hamas are not a conventional enemy. Please wake up to the reality of these people.