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Conflict in the Middle East

To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

535 replies

march10th · 26/03/2024 17:47

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

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17
CaterhamReconstituted · 05/04/2024 13:20

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 13:10

I quite literally watched, just a few weeks ago, a Hamas leader on a TV interview saying they would never accept Israel's right of independence, nor live in peace with Israel, and that they would use a two state solution to attack Israel, and kill all it's citizens. And he thanked people around the world for their support with this plan!

If Hamas had any interest in a peaceful two state solution, they would have spent years planning that and not a devastating murder spree that they absolutely knew would kill any peace process permanently.

They would have educated their children to believe in a peaceful solution. They would have encouraged (and not arrested) the small number of peace activists who tried dialogue with Israel. They would have likely held election, and demonstrated to the global community that they were no longer committed to terrorism and death but to democracy and tolerance.

They would have done more or less anything other than plan one of the worst terrorist attacks in the history of the world during which they parachuted into a crowd of young people dancing, raped, murdered, tortured and mutilated them before heading to a peaceful and unarmed community and savagely murdering them to, burning them alive in their homes and live streaming the entire thing for the world to cheer.

And they would not have Israeli hostages for six months in their basements!!!!

"Hamas is outwardly more reasonable" - did you seriously just say this???? Hamas have never done a damn thing other oppress everyone, kill people and steal things from the needs. This comment is an absolute joke.

The “Hamas are more reasonable” comment in particular shows how deep the rot is. It’s like operating in a completely different universe.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 13:10

Babyboomtastic · 05/04/2024 12:31

Ok, so ignore body count (because it doesn't go in your favour 🙄) and look at objectives and intent. Deal.

Objectives

I'm using the ruling group/parties here most of the time as it's fairer than using the countries as a whole.

Hamas: have stated they want a Palestinian state from the 'river to the sea'
Likud party: have stated they want an Israeli state from the 'river to the sea'

So same then.

Hamas: will accept a state on 1967 borders (see their more recent constitution)
Likud: will not consider a 2 state solution and encourages the settler movement.

Hamas outwardly more reasonable here, at least on paper.

Intent
Prominent members of both Hamas and Likud/Israeli government ministers have made comments supporting violence against the civilian populations. Some members of Hamas leadership not regretting the atrocity they committed, saying they'd do it again. Members of the Israeli government talking about total destruction on Gaza, that they will be crushed as animals, using nuclear bombs etc, saying there is no such thing as a civilian.

Both have made genocidal statements. The difference is that only Israel is capable of realising it's ambitions...

I quite literally watched, just a few weeks ago, a Hamas leader on a TV interview saying they would never accept Israel's right of independence, nor live in peace with Israel, and that they would use a two state solution to attack Israel, and kill all it's citizens. And he thanked people around the world for their support with this plan!

If Hamas had any interest in a peaceful two state solution, they would have spent years planning that and not a devastating murder spree that they absolutely knew would kill any peace process permanently.

They would have educated their children to believe in a peaceful solution. They would have encouraged (and not arrested) the small number of peace activists who tried dialogue with Israel. They would have likely held election, and demonstrated to the global community that they were no longer committed to terrorism and death but to democracy and tolerance.

They would have done more or less anything other than plan one of the worst terrorist attacks in the history of the world during which they parachuted into a crowd of young people dancing, raped, murdered, tortured and mutilated them before heading to a peaceful and unarmed community and savagely murdering them to, burning them alive in their homes and live streaming the entire thing for the world to cheer.

And they would not have Israeli hostages for six months in their basements!!!!

"Hamas is outwardly more reasonable" - did you seriously just say this???? Hamas have never done a damn thing other oppress everyone, kill people and steal things from the needs. This comment is an absolute joke.

CaterhamReconstituted · 05/04/2024 13:00

Babyboomtastic · 05/04/2024 12:31

Ok, so ignore body count (because it doesn't go in your favour 🙄) and look at objectives and intent. Deal.

Objectives

I'm using the ruling group/parties here most of the time as it's fairer than using the countries as a whole.

Hamas: have stated they want a Palestinian state from the 'river to the sea'
Likud party: have stated they want an Israeli state from the 'river to the sea'

So same then.

Hamas: will accept a state on 1967 borders (see their more recent constitution)
Likud: will not consider a 2 state solution and encourages the settler movement.

Hamas outwardly more reasonable here, at least on paper.

Intent
Prominent members of both Hamas and Likud/Israeli government ministers have made comments supporting violence against the civilian populations. Some members of Hamas leadership not regretting the atrocity they committed, saying they'd do it again. Members of the Israeli government talking about total destruction on Gaza, that they will be crushed as animals, using nuclear bombs etc, saying there is no such thing as a civilian.

Both have made genocidal statements. The difference is that only Israel is capable of realising it's ambitions...

No. Body count is not the proper measure. Can you really not tell the moral difference between someone deliberately killed because they are Jewish, and someone inadvertently killed because a group are trying to defend themselves against genocide, in an environment where their leaders will deliberately hide behind civilians?

Some of the language Israelis use about “animals” etc is not supportable, but it is fairly normal during wartime to describe the enemy in such terms. Even then, there is much propaganda about the use of this language - it is often used to describe Hamas rather than the Palestinian people. The Bibi map that is being mentioned is a red herring. It was a faux pas, but he was talking about making peace with Arab nations without the Palestinians, who aren’t interested in peace.

Hamas do not accept a two-state solution. Their most recent charter explicitly refuses to recognise the state of Israel. They accept a state along 1967 borders only as a prelude to a war to wipe out the Jews.

Oakstreet · 05/04/2024 12:40

march10th · 26/03/2024 17:47

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

I agree with you. I am European. But have travelled extensively around the middle east, including Occupied Palestinian Territories.75 years of horrific oppression and murder. Unfortunately, it took myself and many others to go there and learn from Israeli Jews, Israelis who are not Jews, Arab Israelis, palestinian Christians. Muslims. Orthodox Jews who are horrified at what us is happening. It is more complex then simply 'Muslims are terrorists. It is very deeply disturbing, how the palestinians were/are treated.

Babyboomtastic · 05/04/2024 12:31

CaterhamReconstituted · 05/04/2024 12:11

None of this is correct. Suicide bombing is not inevitable like a natural event such as a flood. It is a concrete human behaviour. To think otherwise dehumanises the Palestinians as passive animals who can’t help but behave in this way. It happens because of prevailing ideas that motivate them to behave in this way - anti-Semitism and fundamentalist religious ideas about martyrdom and jihad. It’s not a response to “subjugation” or land or statehood (the Palestinians could have had a state by now if they really wanted it).

The Tibetan Buddhists do not produce an endless supply of suicide bombers and terrorists in response to Chinese oppression.

Body count is not the proper comparison between Israel and Hamas. It is about objectives and intent.

Edited

Ok, so ignore body count (because it doesn't go in your favour 🙄) and look at objectives and intent. Deal.

Objectives

I'm using the ruling group/parties here most of the time as it's fairer than using the countries as a whole.

Hamas: have stated they want a Palestinian state from the 'river to the sea'
Likud party: have stated they want an Israeli state from the 'river to the sea'

So same then.

Hamas: will accept a state on 1967 borders (see their more recent constitution)
Likud: will not consider a 2 state solution and encourages the settler movement.

Hamas outwardly more reasonable here, at least on paper.

Intent
Prominent members of both Hamas and Likud/Israeli government ministers have made comments supporting violence against the civilian populations. Some members of Hamas leadership not regretting the atrocity they committed, saying they'd do it again. Members of the Israeli government talking about total destruction on Gaza, that they will be crushed as animals, using nuclear bombs etc, saying there is no such thing as a civilian.

Both have made genocidal statements. The difference is that only Israel is capable of realising it's ambitions...

Minymile · 05/04/2024 12:22

Millions of people have seen this from the beginning. That’s why there are marches all over the world.

Given Netanyahus map in September of last year which removed Gaza and replaced it with Israel it’s very clear his goal is to do just that.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 12:21

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CaterhamReconstituted · 05/04/2024 12:11

Kindatired · 05/04/2024 11:52

@statsfun
Israel will always have a security problem just as the Netherlands has to live with flood risks. Israel is surrounded by the people that were displaced to create a Jewish homeland. Even if 99.9% of them thought the whole project was just the best idea ever, these are land borders, not sea borders. It’s not that it’s good to have terrorists, it’s just what happens when you forcibly displace people or subjugate them. If you get rid of Hamas, it will just be another group doing the same thing, until the Palestinians are living in a properly functioning state with a fair amount of the land.

I find it hard to understand how pro-Israeli posters argue that the loss of 30,000 people is not significant enough to call it genocide, a litany of death figures from WW2 is trotted out to claim that the civilian losses are entirely reasonable and yet the 7/10 statistics are presented as if a second Holocaust is inevitable if a ground assault on Rafah is not allowed to take place.Its like as if Palestinian lives don’t matter. In the period alluded to, Israel killed about 6,000 Palestinians, including about 700 kids.

But then maybe you’ll say that the people of Gaza should be grateful to the IDF for getting rid of at least 7000 of their tormentors, even if they’ve lost 11,000 of their children in response to the loss of 1200 Israelis.

None of this is correct. Suicide bombing is not inevitable like a natural event such as a flood. It is a concrete human behaviour. To think otherwise dehumanises the Palestinians as passive animals who can’t help but behave in this way. It happens because of prevailing ideas that motivate them to behave in this way - anti-Semitism and fundamentalist religious ideas about martyrdom and jihad. It’s not a response to “subjugation” or land or statehood (the Palestinians could have had a state by now if they really wanted it).

The Tibetan Buddhists do not produce an endless supply of suicide bombers and terrorists in response to Chinese oppression.

Body count is not the proper comparison between Israel and Hamas. It is about objectives and intent.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 12:03

Limesodaagain · 05/04/2024 11:35

This has always been an issue for me. Particularly with regard to the lack of condemnation ofHamas on the pro Palestinian marches in the early days after Oct 7th .
I do think we are in a different place now. The destruction of Gaza is too too much .
Hamas are monsters but those destroying Gaza are also looking like monsters.
With regard to Hamas using civilians as human shields I am sure they do that . I think they have absolutely no concern for the lives of Palestinian civilians and their actions on Oct 7th provided proof of that. I think it is well known that they use a network of tunnels- some of the released hostages were kept in the tunnels.
I am prepared to believe there was Hamas infiltration in Al Shifa . Since Hamas is the government of Gaza I don’t see how doctors in the Gazan hospitals could stop the Hamas government using the hospitals as they wanted.
That DOES NOT mean the IDF have a free pass to kill everyone. I feel desperately sorry for doctors in Gaza who are trying to help the sick and injured. Some doctors might be Hamas supporters but I imagine most are in a heartbreaking situation. They don’t have a choice but to do what a government/ terrorists tell them to do .
What would we do in their shoes?
The IDF shouldn’t be bombing hospitals or Aid workers.

This sounds like a really thoughtful and measured approach to this.

Kindatired · 05/04/2024 11:52

@statsfun
Israel will always have a security problem just as the Netherlands has to live with flood risks. Israel is surrounded by the people that were displaced to create a Jewish homeland. Even if 99.9% of them thought the whole project was just the best idea ever, these are land borders, not sea borders. It’s not that it’s good to have terrorists, it’s just what happens when you forcibly displace people or subjugate them. If you get rid of Hamas, it will just be another group doing the same thing, until the Palestinians are living in a properly functioning state with a fair amount of the land.

I find it hard to understand how pro-Israeli posters argue that the loss of 30,000 people is not significant enough to call it genocide, a litany of death figures from WW2 is trotted out to claim that the civilian losses are entirely reasonable and yet the 7/10 statistics are presented as if a second Holocaust is inevitable if a ground assault on Rafah is not allowed to take place.Its like as if Palestinian lives don’t matter. In the period alluded to, Israel killed about 6,000 Palestinians, including about 700 kids.

But then maybe you’ll say that the people of Gaza should be grateful to the IDF for getting rid of at least 7000 of their tormentors, even if they’ve lost 11,000 of their children in response to the loss of 1200 Israelis.

Parkingt111 · 05/04/2024 11:44

@Limesodaagain I agree with most of what you have said

ScrollingLeaves · 05/04/2024 11:43

statsfun · 05/04/2024 08:57

Limiting terrorist capability is a matter of degree. You can't expect it to work completely, But it's better than what happens if you don't.

I don't see a viable alternative to Israel reinstating security in some form or other. I don't know how it will be done. But given that reducing Israeli security control over Gaza resulted in October 7th, it seems likely to be more control not less.

But given that reducing Israeli security control over Gaza resulted in October 7th, it seems likely to be more control not less.

One of the most difficult things to understand is that 15 very young female surveillance soldiers were left alone to guard the Israeli border; and that their, and a female head of security’s, warnings about what Hamas was preparing were unfortunately not taken seriously enough.

This does not mean it was Israel’s fault that Hamas attacked, but more Israeli vigilance at that point would have helped Israeli security at that point a great deal.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/oct-7-radio-transmission-by-slain-surveillance-soldier-roni-eshel-aired-for-first-time/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-warned-of-hamas-activity-on-gaza-border-for-months-before-oct-7/

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan Over a Year Ago - The New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html

Limesodaagain · 05/04/2024 11:35

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

This has always been an issue for me. Particularly with regard to the lack of condemnation ofHamas on the pro Palestinian marches in the early days after Oct 7th .
I do think we are in a different place now. The destruction of Gaza is too too much .
Hamas are monsters but those destroying Gaza are also looking like monsters.
With regard to Hamas using civilians as human shields I am sure they do that . I think they have absolutely no concern for the lives of Palestinian civilians and their actions on Oct 7th provided proof of that. I think it is well known that they use a network of tunnels- some of the released hostages were kept in the tunnels.
I am prepared to believe there was Hamas infiltration in Al Shifa . Since Hamas is the government of Gaza I don’t see how doctors in the Gazan hospitals could stop the Hamas government using the hospitals as they wanted.
That DOES NOT mean the IDF have a free pass to kill everyone. I feel desperately sorry for doctors in Gaza who are trying to help the sick and injured. Some doctors might be Hamas supporters but I imagine most are in a heartbreaking situation. They don’t have a choice but to do what a government/ terrorists tell them to do .
What would we do in their shoes?
The IDF shouldn’t be bombing hospitals or Aid workers.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 10:58

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:01

How was this initiated in Germany? Do you know?

People who had been members of the Nazi party (about 10% of the population) were removed from any kind of public position - including low down jobs like teachers. Hundreds of thousands were kept in camps while they were investigated and questioned. They were classified on a sliding scale of how "Nazi" they'd been, and the top level ones were tried for war crimes and the low level ones were just rehabilitated which was done through education in democracy or racial equality.

Severity of this process varied from region to region, different allies controlling at the time different parts. West Germany was much more lax and some Nazis continued in positions of power, but East Germany was more intense. It was complicated I think, a lot of key industrialists had been prominent Nazis who were doing not very nice things - producing weapons for the concentration camps or war, and some were using slave labour. All that considered there was an economy to run too. A lot of "useful" Nazis were let off the hook and sent to useful places. For example the best scientists went to America to work for them. Yuck. But hey ho.

Young people were exempted from repercussions on the understanding they'd been too young to know any better and had been brainwashed by propaganda into the horrific acts committed but a lot of other Nazis were punished even for low level support of the Nazis. Aside from the obvious trials, many were imprisoned and a lot were banned from working as anything other than manual labourers.

Everything was completely censored. Books were banned, posters, songs, paintings - anything depicting Nazism or that was racist to Jews. Some places like antisemitic media companies or newspapers were closed down.

All Nazi laws were repealed - particularly the racist ones. Nazi judges and police were removed from their jobs. The Allies enacted laws and regulations aimed at preventing the resurgence of Nazi ideology, like banning Nazi symbols, organizations, and hate speech.

In schools, the Allies implemented new educational policies that aimed to promote democratic values, critical thinking, and tolerance of all races as equal. They revised curricula to remove Nazi propaganda and indoctrination and introduced new subjects focusing on democracy, human rights, and the consequences of totalitarianism. Teachers were retrained to promote democratic principles and racial equality and textbooks were revised.

Efforts were made to promote international understanding and cooperation through things like exchange programs, cultural exchanges, and collaborations with foreign educational institutions so German children were made to see the world outside their own and to begin to foster peaceful feelings with other nations and races. Children were taught about what the Nazis did, and it was explained to them why it was wrong but an effort was made to retain German culture and celebrate it, just minus the Nazi bit.

It was a complex, and very difficult process that was not perfect and no doubt in parts was cruel and involved collective punishment. No doubt many suffered. I doubt anyone would get away with doing nowadays. We'd no doubt here that it was human rights abuse, or white supremacy, or something else. That said, I am awfully glad someone did it and I imagine German people largely are too.

Dulra · 05/04/2024 10:15

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

Because at this stage it is surely a given that the majority of posters view Hamas as an illegal terrorist organisation and being pissed off at them would be a complete understatement. I don't understand why people continually want us to mention Hamas when we are discussing Israel's actions, do you really want us to draw comparisons between a nation state and a terrorist organisation? I for one expect more from a nation state then a terrorist organisation which has not signed up to the Geneva convention and which is not recognised as a legitimate government by the countries most of us come from.

PeasfullPerson · 05/04/2024 10:07

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

I think that people were completely appalled by Hamas, and that when Israel stops destroying Gaza and the people in it, the world will have time to focus more of its energy on Hamas.
But not as much as if the Israeli response had been more proportionate, because the level of destruction to the hearts and homes of people, and the infrastructure is huge, and I don’t know how Gaza moves forward from this.

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

PeasfullPerson · 05/04/2024 09:21

This is deluded. Total control is unethical and impossible, a security strategy based on this is at best a fantasy, and at worst a dystopian reality.

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

Scirocco · 05/04/2024 09:44

@Alexandra2001 I wouldn't bother getting too invested in trying to challenge some people's views, tbh. A Mengele comparison before 9am says a lot.

I had been under the impression that WW2 comparisons were generally considered inappropriate, lazy and disrespectful. Apparently that doesn't apply when they can be used to try to take cheap shots at other posters.

PeasfullPerson · 05/04/2024 09:21

statsfun · 05/04/2024 07:59

Taking out a substantial proportion of Hamas 30,000-40,000 strong army (either through killing or detention), destroying their tunnels and HQs and confiscating the substantial weapons they've smuggled in over the last 15 years absolutely will hugely reduce their capability to harm Israel. Assassinating their experienced leaders will set Hamas back 20 years.

Yes, new young recruits will join. But it will take time for them to become effective. Much more time than if the existing army and infrastructure was still been in place, in fact. And make no mistake, many would have joined anyway: we can see from history (before Israel was even a state) that this radicalisation happens regardless of what Israel do.

They may actually never become so effective again since I expect that Israel will have a much tighter security situation after this war, and will never allow the militant capability to build up so much again.

I suspect Israel have resigned themselves to perpetual damage limitation. And removing terrorist capability as it appears does achieve that.

This is deluded. Total control is unethical and impossible, a security strategy based on this is at best a fantasy, and at worst a dystopian reality.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 09:13

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:33

Evidence of your eyes and ears?

I had no idea you are on the ground in Gaza, stay safe.

You like everyone else is subject to media bias but comparing leading NHS trauma surgeons to Mengele is beyond sickening.

I think you re showing your true beliefs and motives here.

😂

My true beliefs are that I've seen a mountain of evidence of how Hamas operates, from a wide range of sources, including first hand accounts from Palestians such as John Aziz or Ahmed Alkhatib. I've seen videos, photos and irrefutable evidence in abundance that perfectly satisfies me that Hamas not only use schools, hospitals and civilians for cover - but that's its one of their primary strategies. You're perfectly free to believe otherwise.

I have also seem a mountain of evidence that some NHS workers support Hamas. Many have been exposed for this and many are under investigation by the GMC and even the police. An NHS doctor was even found to be the Head of a recently proscribed terrorist organisation that openly applauded the 7/10 massacre. I find that sickening.

Some antisemites and terrorism supporters work in the NHS, that is a proven fact. Being a "western doctor" isn't evidence of anything and does not make someone's testimony more valuable, nor does it mean they are not a liar, mot complicit or not even just simply unaware of what's going on in another room.

If you wish to believe Hamas don't use hospitals for terrorism, please, go ahead. I could not give a monkeys. But I think they do, and "a western doctor says they don't" isn't evidence. I listened to the UN deny for years that their agency workers were involved with Hamas.

Then I watched a server farm being discovered under their office, and I watched their staff picking up bodies of Israelis on 7/10 and chucking them , lifeless, into the back of an SUV. I think a huge number of people support Hamas actually, and sometimes they work for the NHS or the UN. Shocking? Yes. True? Yes.

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:01

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:13

Germans also went through a long and laborious of de-nazification.

A school curriculum was introduced to de-program children from Jew hatred, and organisations, institutions and workplaces were re-educated and people were taught that the ideas of Nazis were unacceptable and racist.

How was this initiated in Germany? Do you know?

statsfun · 05/04/2024 08:57

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:06

@statsfun Maybe they will limit Hamas capability, though past military actions never did.

There is also the West bank to consider and islamist groups in southern lebanon.

So what you re saying is Israel will have to have an occupying presence in Gaza or Hamas will once again be free to re arm?

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.

But my bet is Israel will de populate Gaza and/or never allow a comprehensive rebuild of the area.

Limiting terrorist capability is a matter of degree. You can't expect it to work completely, But it's better than what happens if you don't.

I don't see a viable alternative to Israel reinstating security in some form or other. I don't know how it will be done. But given that reducing Israeli security control over Gaza resulted in October 7th, it seems likely to be more control not less.

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:33

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:19

I'm afraid I absolutely do not believe this. Being a western doctor means little to me. Josef Mengele was a western doctor...it's not an identity which makes you beyond dishonesty 8r even partipation in wrongdoing. Which is an illustration, not an accusation. Certainly I see and hear western people EVERY DAY who happily say they fully support Hamas.

The evidence of my eyes and ears tells me that Hamas' terror network is threaded through all of the Gaza Strip, in every sense, and that sites and institutions which should have been neutral and uninvolved, were anything but. You all don't need to agree. But I stand by my assessment.

Evidence of your eyes and ears?

I had no idea you are on the ground in Gaza, stay safe.

You like everyone else is subject to media bias but comparing leading NHS trauma surgeons to Mengele is beyond sickening.

I think you re showing your true beliefs and motives here.

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:29

Scirocco · 05/04/2024 08:20

Yep. I'm one of the people saying that I never saw evidence of it, and that there are grave concerns that my fellow healthcare workers are being targeted.

I gave a pretty clear example the other day, @Alexandra2001 , of two healthcare workers having been executed. I was basically told I was lying, that they were probably terrorists, to have empathy for the poor soldiers who bravely tied them up and shot them.

Far braver people than me have gone to the media to share these points and have been dismissed and minimised.

Sorry, hard to keep up!

Dulra · 05/04/2024 08:25

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:06

@statsfun Maybe they will limit Hamas capability, though past military actions never did.

There is also the West bank to consider and islamist groups in southern lebanon.

So what you re saying is Israel will have to have an occupying presence in Gaza or Hamas will once again be free to re arm?

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.

But my bet is Israel will de populate Gaza and/or never allow a comprehensive rebuild of the area.

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.
I also think Israel are going to have to let other organisations in to help with the rebuild, organisations that they claim are anti -Israel such as UNWRA and the UN. Also who funds the rebuild?
Currently we have a situation where there is no functioning health system in Gaza. It is priority to put alternatives such as field hospitals in place asap but with Israel only just agreeing to open more access routes for aid after immense pressure to do so, how will medical supports be supplied and administered? With so many murdered medical staff who will want to go there now? People forget that although it is a war zone people are still suffering from other medical conditions such as cancer, diabetes etc and without the right medical supports and equipment these people will die. I have already read that cancer patients aren't getting access to chemotherapy, infant mortality rate has increased. The current death rate is high but it will be higher if you account for all those that will die indirectly because of the conflict.