To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

Yes, keep this brief, but the Good Friday Agreement was an act of surrender by the UK Parliament. It dismantled much of the security apparatus and British armed presence in return for vague promises by terrorists (who can re-arm in hours if they wanted to), makes it against the law to fly the Union flag for most of the year, released loads of terrorists from prison and means that Northern Ireland is only a referendum away from re-joining Ireland. I want peace yes. But not at any price.
Give me strength!

@ScrollingLeaves
You paint a very scary picture. The IDF cannot be left in Gaza they have demonstrated their complete lack of respect to Gazans and their lives. I don't think anyone would agree to that. I would imagine lessons from the experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan when there was regime change could inform the process, not that they were glowing successes 🙄

It surely would be better than it is now for Gazans if Hamas were to release the hostages and surrender. But Gazans would be prisoners under a miltary regime that would be very grim.
There would be no real peace for them.

More bulldozing and bombing would happen ostensibly to try to get at all the tunnels.

They would be surveilled night and day, be arrested in the night in their hundreds ( even children who were not throwing stones would be so the IDF could question them), be guarded over, shot ‘for being a terrorist’ including children, including journalists, including doctors, have swathes of land removed to make buffer zones, be blockaded, not be allowed proper schools, probably have land used/settled in deals ‘to help rebuild’ Gaza, have no free access to their mosques, and check points would be everywhere.

There would be no two state solution.

@statsfun I think if Hamas as an organisation had wanted to protect Palestinian civilians, they probably wouldn't have initiated one of the most significant terror attacks this century, against a country whose government was pretty much guaranteed to respond by destroying Gaza.

There are some intelligent people in the Hamas leadership. And it doesn't require much intelligence to work out that this would just lead to destruction raining down on the innocent people of Gaza.

Participants in 7/10 are reported to have fully expected to die in their 'mission'. Part of me wonders if the organisers intended this to be the 'sacrifice' of everyone in Gaza, along the lines of "we choose to die now, rather than when our oppressors choose" in the hope that it would trigger wider action. But the people of Gaza didn't sign up for that.

They probably don't give a shit about innocent people dying. We should.

My understanding of the Israeli position is that releasing the hostages alone would not be sufficient to stop the war. But surrender of the Hamas military would.
That would only work if an independent peacekeeping force was put in and the IDF had no part in it.

I don't think living in Gaza under Israeli occupation is hopeful whether Hamas are there or not.

Of course that's not what I meant!

Do you think any (non-Hamas) Palestinian lives have been saved by the actions of the 30 thousand strong Hamas army over the last 6 months?

Or do you think that there would have been fewer innocent deaths if that army had not existed and had not engaged in fighting the IDF?

My understanding of the Israeli position is that releasing the hostages alone would not be sufficient to stop the war. But surrender of the Hamas military would. There was a proposal along those lines which offered for the Hamas leadership to leave Gaza early on in the war.

Maybe life for Palestinians pre October 7th would have been more hopeful if the Hamas government hadn’t been siphoning off so much of the aid money meant to improve their lives for terrorist purposes.

Why isn't stopping terrorism the focus of all the pro-Palestinian demonstrators? It's the only possible way for life to improve for Palestinians.
@statsfun I don't think that's something within demonstrators control, their marches are directed at the UK government to stop selling arms to Israel and to vote for a ceasefire. I don't think demonstrators in the UK have any influence on Hamas.

I have said before the only way to stop terrorism and to stop terrorists recruiting is to give people hope. Hope of a future, hope that things will get better for their children and that they will no longer be oppressed. I see it as similar to the young people I work with getting enticed into drug gangs, they live in poverty, their lives and future offer them nothing they are easily groomed, manipulated and enticed into a world of crime. They need to be offered a realistic alternative to that. Same goes for Palestinians, what is the alternative? what better future can they have? If there are other options and people can trust in that, support for terrorist tactics dwindle because people want to get on with living their lives and don't want that disrupted or threatened. I don't know how anyone can argue that going back to how Gaza was pre-october is of any benefit to the Palestinians. As horrific as Hamas are who else can Gazans trust at the moment to put their interests first, not that I think Hamas are but at the moment it seems the only option they've got.

@statsfun How would Hamas surrendering stop the bloodshed in Gaza?

I suppose it might mean that the IDF could kill everyone else faster, but I hope that's not what you meant.

The Israeli government has stated consistently that they would not end military action in response to Hamas surrendering and releasing hostages. They have been clear that they would continue the bloodshed in those circumstances.

I am glad that someone admits that Hamas does not have the ability to destroy Israel. I think that most analysts agree that Hamas intended to provoke an Israeli reaction sufficient to draw in Hezbollah who do actually have the capacity to inflict serious damage to Israel.

Unchecked by Biden, Netanyahu has made progress on depopulating swathes of Gaza made the more extreme coalition partners happy, thus deferring his fall from power and his likely incarceration.

But Hamas is an ideology and the ideology is strengthened by the Israeli atrocities. We see that already it has reconstituted in parts of Northern Gaza. The tunnel network is still largely intact. The fighter groups are reported to reduced in size from groups if 30 to 1-2 guerrilla fighters. There’s the risk that there will be no leaders to negotiate with who can bring the movement on board. There have been hints that some splinter groups have made off with some of the hostages.With famine setting in , the outlook for Gaza is looking bleaker and bleaker and the outlook for the hostages is pretty grim.

They all need to grit their teeth, keep a vomit bowl beside them and crack on with getting dialogue going and the international community need to take some serious measures like trade bans in Israel

Sorry, I was busy yesterday so will try to answer all in one mega-post!

That's a really interesting point @Kindatired about the numerous terror groups, waiting to step in.

You never stop all terrorism though. In the UK, we are always monitoring and stepping in to remove terrorist threats - it just doesn't hit the news until that fails.

Hamas are big enough that they are the 'Gazan' party in the current negotiations. And from all accounts, it is an established formal structure. They are running Gaza after all.

I guess I have to agree though that even if Hamas leaders to surrender themselves and their weapons and release the hostages it wouldn't stop the terrorism forever. It would stop the war and the immediate suffering in Gaza though, and it would be as effective for Israel’s security as military destruction of Hamas. But yes, other groups would fill the gap and terrorism might build up again over the next 20 years. Still, 20 years of peace is worth having, for everyone's sake. And I do think that peace begets peace. If you manage to disrupt the cycle, there's at least a chance for peace to continue.

Regarding picturing how it feels for Gazans: of course I understand that Gazans feel hatred for Israelis. I also understand that they just accept terrorists as part of their landscape - so that's what I think needs to be disrupted. Perhaps as some have suggested, involvement from the Arab states could have a chance. This might get rid of those microagressions - and actual aggressions - you talk about. But I don't know how the Arab state involvement can remove terrorist acts without the Gazans perceiving them as another oppressor. And the terrorist acts would need to absolutely be controlled for this to be a possible way forward for Israel.

I also do understand Gazans not removing Hamas themselves. Even apart from the shared hatred of Israel, I understand that it would feel too hard to contemplate as an individual. Hamas brutally destroy those Gazans brave enough to stand against them, and certainly right now nothing is possible.

BUT

It's people demonstrating and influencing outside Gaza I don't understand. The Palestinian diaspora, and Westerners raising the Palestinian cause.

@mollyfolk says "Marching in the west will make no difference to getting rid of Hamas. They cannot be pressured politically from here. It would be a complete waste of time."

But of course Hamas can be pressured politically from here!! Far more than Israel!

Israel have their own powerful army. They will use their army to force what is really important to them by military means. That's pretty much the point of an army, and is why it's almost impossible for a country not to have one (honorable exception being Costa Rica) since without one, you are at other people's mercy and don't usually remain a country for long.

Hamas have an army, but it's not powerful enough to fight against Israel. Their only possible winning strategy is to get other countries to stop Israel with their armies (or the threat of them) Hamas strategy is entirely about what is happening outside Gaza: in the other Arab countries but also in the West. For Hamas, this is totally an information and propaganda war. (And also as a side-effect stealing more international aid money of course)

So yes, what you do here has a huge impact on what Hamas does. It's certainly no accident that Hamas only delivered their rejection of the latest negotiations after the US abstained from the UN vote. The demonstrations in the West embolden Hamas that they might get Western governments to force Israel to concede more, so they hold out. And Palestinians suffer. If the protests and pressure were against Hamas as well as Israel, that would change the dynamic significantly.

@ScrollingLeaves - you said "But apart from that consideration, the war would only stop in as far as the Palestinians would have no arms, no state, and be under the subjugation of Israel."

Yes, that's true. But the reality is that Israel is much, much more powerful than Hamas so giving up their army doesn't actually harm the Palestinians in any way since they don't get any benefit from it anyway. That's pretty much what Costa Rica decided. In Gaza, if they didn't have their army, the Gazans wouldn't just have suffered 6 months of devastating war which has brought them zero benefit.

Giving up their army does harm the terrorists who get their personal power from leading a mafia and their personal wealth from stealing aid, of course.

Israel - especially under international pressure - would eventually negotiate a 2SS. It might take a few generations (longer now, after October 7th) and would mean that the Palestinians have to give up some of their requests like right to return. But it's possible. IF the terrorism stops. Why isn't stopping terrorism the focus of all the pro-Palestinian demonstrators? It's the only possible way for life to improve for Palestinians.

Continuing slightly off topic but the 1937 constitution of the Republic gave special protection to Jewish citizens. This specific protection was removed in 1970 along with a clause that gave the Catholic Church special recognition-it was unreasonable to expect people from a unionist tradition to accept such a clause.

Ok but my last point on this is the Irish were not given
The right to decide how they wish to be governed because they were colonised and the right was taken away from them for 600 years and than their country was partitioned

but any secession must be peaceful and constitutional, and not forced into by terrorism Agree and that is what eventually happened.
The troubles began as a civil rights movement because Catholics were treated less favourably then Protestants in many areas of civil life. So that is lesson for everyone. Oppression does not work, true equality and equity for all regardless of colour, faith, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation is the only true path to peace

I’ve been many times. I know the history but we are where we are. People have the right to decide how they wish to be governed but any secession must be peaceful and constitutional, and not forced into by terrorism. But let’s agree to disagree on this one.

No it's not but don't ignore the democratic processes that have taken place which we've already discussed. You are being intentionally goady now

And my country is Ireland which included the full island of Ireland before we were colonised. Have you ever walked the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? It cuts fields in half it was partitioned artificially and conquered through brutal colonisation.
The preservation of the union may be the policy of some political parties but definitely not all and thankfully each country in the union have been devoled and has the option to decide for themselves how they want to be governed. You can continue living in the past with your coloniser views but the rest of us have thankfully moved on.

IRA bombing is not part of the democratic process

My country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Do you see the “and Northern Ireland” bit? Northern Ireland is every much part of my country as London is. How is this a “lack of understanding”? As for an “extremist” position, the preservation of the Union is the current policy of almost every major political party in the UK.

The maintenance of the union at all costs is an ideology. You have no regard for democratic processes.

It’s the kind of extreme view that keeps cycles of violence going on everywhere including the Hamas/Israel conflict.

Yes we'll have to move on I am just grateful that the moderate voice negotiated the terms for peace because we'd never get anywhere with extremist views.

UK doesn’t exist without Northern Ireland
This comment alone shows your lack of understanding on the topic and the history of Ireland. You are obviously a colonist which explains a lot. I think your posts on NI have been extremely offensive and dismissive of the people living there so let's move on before you insult us any more.

Any nation has the right to determine its own future. But it was a massive concession to give legal sanction for a referendum by a Government whose priority is to protect the integrity of the country. It IS inviolable, the UK doesn’t exist without Northern Ireland. NI is as much a part of the UK as London or Manchester. To believe in and campaign for a united Ireland is a reasonable position - I just don’t see why the UK Government should actively assist in that. By the way, I don’t think every demand for a referendum should be accepted. Otherwise you could keep having referenda until you got the result you wanted (as Sturgeon indeed tried to do).

Yes, the Good Friday Agreement is widely popular, the Blair PR machine worked overtime on that. Popularity doesn’t mean it was right though.

Anyway, back to the main topic…

Yes absolutely. I have many friends across the water myself. They are my people. I’m talking about the terms of a particular treaty. I applaud the efforts of the people on both sides to work towards peace and better community relations. Anyway, it’s getting off the topic of Israel-Palestine.

I do think you need to stop there because you are a pretty lone voice in opposition to the Good Friday agreement. Over 71% of the population in NI voted in favour of the good friday agreement that is the democratic system working where the gun and bomb failed.

and means that Northern Ireland is only a referendum away from re-joining Ireland. I want peace yes. But not at any price.
Possibly but that is through a democratic referendum not violence, you obviously don't support the democratic processes. It has been left for the people of Northern Ireland to decide their fate not the British government and not the Irish government. Did you also object to Scotland having a referendum on seperating from the UK? I don't know where you're from or why you feel so strongly about Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have the right to decide on their own future.

Inviolable?

Funny, during all the Scottish Independence debates, we were told by the UK government that it was a union of consent.