To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

I agree.

Fwiw I have always been a advocate of a two state solution. But I'm sure you can see how usurping more and more land has a detrimental affect to any future peace no matter who claims what.
The only way forward is for both Isralis and Palestinians to have the right of self determination on their own land.

@CaterhamReconstituted Yes I tagged the wrong person by mistake.
I'm glad we both agree on the settlements being illegal

To be fair to Alexandra2001, she is replying to me and the bold text are my words. She is of the same opinion as you.

To be clear, I understand that the settlements in West Bank are widely considered illegal under international law.

Israelis have committed war crimes of course. And that is wrong. There are extremists in the settler movement who are truly dangerous too.

But here’s the thing. Israel recognises what a war crime is, and punishes soldiers when they commit them. This is different to saying that Israel itself has a policy of committing war crimes. The Israelis are not the Nazis, who were motivated by an ideology of racial hatred.

The Israeli claim on certain territories is not just Biblical (although it’s true that some Jews believe this is justification enough) but historical - the West Bank is where the ancient kingdom of Israel was. I can understand why the settlements are controversial though.

I’m not saying that everything that Israel does is correct or that every Israeli is incapable of committing war crimes. I’m saying that it isn’t genocide to defend yourself against extremists who actually want to commit genocide against you, and that the civilian death toll is appalling but not deliberate and so cannot be used as the moral balance between the two sides. That is all.

@CaterhamReconstituted well if they have claim to it all then where does that leave Palestine and the Palestinians who are indigenous to the land?
Your posts are quite telling that you dispute what majority of the world deem an illegal occupation.
And then where does it end? Because there's also some who believe in greater Israel which encompasses the land of other nearby countries too which they also say they have a biblical claim too

Israel is not doing anything remotely comparable to the Holocaust, which was a unique and special crime. To say that the situation in Gaza is comparable to the Holocaust is anti-Semitic Jew-baiting, and I will always call it out

Call out what you like..... bottom line is deliberately targeting Palestinians inc international aid workers is cruel and some would say murderous.

Are you seriously saying that Israel cannot commit or be accused of war crimes just because of terrifying events committed against them in the 1930s and 40s?

The borders between Israel and the Palestinian Territories are not internationally agreed. The Arabs have continually rejected a two-state solution. The land in West Bank, which includes places like Jericho and Bethlehem, is also the ancestral homeland of Jewish people which is why they have a claim there as well

So they have a biblical claim.... so that makes all ok to go in and take over Palestinian homes and even kill the occupants?
isn't that exactly what Palestinian terror groups have been doing to innocent Israelis since 1948?

Alexandra2001 - Israel is not doing anything remotely comparable to the Holocaust, which was a unique and special crime. To say that the situation in Gaza is comparable to the Holocaust is anti-Semitic Jew-baiting, and I will always call it out.

The borders between Israel and the Palestinian Territories are not internationally agreed. The Arabs have continually rejected a two-state solution. The land in West Bank, which includes places like Jericho and Bethlehem, is also the ancestral homeland of Jewish people which is why they have a claim there as well.

I do think anti-Semitism comes into it, it is an old hatred that infects international organisations too. To accuse Israel of genocide is deliberately bringing up the most traumatic event in the history of Jewish persecution and throwing it in their faces. It is a blood libel which the Jews have been accused of for centuries. The passionate vitriol that is directed at Israel is also unique, I wonder why?

Perhaps its because they are killing civilians with zero regard? Even deliberately killing members of Medicins San Frontier.... you are clearly very happy with these murders and see no wrong in what Israel is doing.

Just because Israel experienced the worst that mankind can do to each other does not mean Israel cannot do the same to others, that argument makes you look ridiculous.

On settlements - a slightly different issue. Samaria and Judea are ancestral Jewish lands as well so it’s a complicated picture so I don’t quite agree with your characterisation of it. I know what the international community “recognises” but I think they are hopelessly biased against Israel

Yes going into someone else's international agreed territory, killing and throwing out the inhabitants is all ok?

And finally, Hamas are not a resistance force. They aren’t motivated by grievances against land or occupation. They are motivated by a fanatical hatred of the Jews. It’s ridiculous to compare them with organisations like the French resistance, as an earlier poster did

Don't twist my words! YOU made that connection, i was pointing out that even forces such as the Nazi's cannot destroy an ideology, as well you know.

Ok. I meant the whole of what was mandate Palestine. If you’re talking about the West Bank then yes international law says the settlements are illegal. The Israelis distinguish between legal and illegal settlements. What would the borders look like to you? 1948 borders? The Arabs rejected that at the time.

What land are you talking about? If you are talking about the illegal settlements well then no we can't agree to disagree, the law is clear not sure you're agree to disagree would stand up in court of law

Jews and Arabs both have legitimate claims to that land. Can we agree on that at least? Or do you think it should be Jew-free? The question is how to both peoples can co-exist there. The Arabs have rejected a two-state solution several times. There is also no neat way to divide the land that will completely satisfy both sides. The great minds of international politics have not yet worked this conundrum out.

The Jews ARE an indigenous people of the lands that now form the West Bank
So do you support the illegal settlements? You can explain it away all you like but they are illegal no matter what angle you come at it from. By claiming we all just have different opinions on this is ridiculous they are "illegal" settlements

No Ancient Israel was established through conquering inhabited land.

1)They weren't there 'first'
2) Even if they were, since when has that become relevant to modern states
3) If 'who was there first' was relevant, then many modern countries have got a VERY VERY BIG problem, including the USA, Canada, Australia etc.

The Jews ARE an indigenous people of the lands that now form the West Bank.
They are some of the indigenous people of the lands as much as the Muslims and Christians are; therefore they have as much claim to the land as the the Jews, wouldn't you agree?

Thanks. I think it’s clear how easy it is to drive into the sand - we clearly have different views. And we can accept that. The Roman comparison came up yesterday as well and it doesn’t work. Britain was not an ancestral land of Romans, the Romans conquered it. The Jews ARE an indigenous people of the lands that now form the West Bank. And no I I’ve not confused Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Hamas are also a jihadist group.

I understand people have passionate views, but we can still accept there are different perspectives here.
This is not about perspectives here. You can explain why the Israeli government is behaving the way it is but you cannot excuse it.
I don’t agree Israel are wicked and want to ethnically cleanse or collectively punish Gaza.
The Israeli government has made their intentions very clear in regard to Gaza, blatantly I may add.
The passionate vitriol that is directed at Israel is also unique, I wonder why?
Maybe it is because of what is happening in Gaza?
On settlements - a slightly different issue. Samaria and Judea are ancestral Jewish lands as well so it’s a complicated picture.
Well, I am half Italian, off I go to reclaim my Roman ancestral home in the UK and in other countries.
And finally, Hamas are not a resistance force. They aren’t motivated by grievances against land or occupation. They are motivated by a fantatical hatred of the Jews.
Far from me to defend Hamas but you confuse Hamas and the Islamic Jihad.

Sorry but no it isn't. Every nation on earth is capable of genocide. Sometimes, in history, the oppressed become the oppressor.
When we see others as the enemy, we risk becoming what we hate. When we oppress others, we end up oppressing ourselves. All of our humanity is dependent upon recognizing the humanity in others.”
― Desmond Tutu

I understand people have passionate views, but we can still accept there are different perspectives here. I think what is happening in Gaza is awful and I pray for peace too. No disagreement with anyone about that - but I don’t agree Israel are wicked and want to ethnically cleanse or collectively punish Gaza. I think they are fighting a war against a true enemy, Hamas (not the Palestinian people).

I do think anti-Semitism comes into it, it is an old hatred that infects international organisations too. To accuse Israel of genocide is deliberately bringing up the most traumatic event in the history of Jewish persecution and throwing it in their faces. It is a blood libel which the Jews have been accused of for centuries. The passionate vitriol that is directed at Israel is also unique, I wonder why?

On settlements - a slightly different issue. Samaria and Judea are ancestral Jewish lands as well so it’s a complicated picture so I don’t quite agree with your characterisation of it. I know what the international community “recognises” but I think they are hopelessly biased against Israel.

And finally, Hamas are not a resistance force. They aren’t motivated by grievances against land or occupation. They are motivated by a fantatical hatred of the Jews. It’s ridiculous to compare them with organisations like the French resistance, as an earlier poster did.

Lasting peace and Palestinian statehood can be achieved when there is a viable partner in the Palestinian Territories whom the Israelis can negotiate with.

Indeed. I suppose someone should inform David Cameron he's got it all wrong.

Aid is going in though. If the Israelis stop some trucks it is because of security. So much propaganda!
I hope you understand the irony in this sentence.

Oh no, not possible while people are being killed and starved to death in their thousands.

And what do you think should happen to all the illegal expansion and settlements that have been stolen since 1948? Do you not think Palestinians have the right to defend themselves and their ancestral lands.

And please, stop hiding behind this 'antisemitism'. It is just nonsense. Many of us would stand for a people being oblitarated off the face of humanity- by whomever.

Fair enough - I don’t want to press or single out posters but will end by imploring you to please use your head and heart - watch the vids coming out from Palestine with an open heart and let’s all hope for peace urgently.

While I think it would of course be wrong to falsely 'convict' any country or military force of genocide, there have been serious allegations based on concerning information from multiple sources, there is an investigation in progress by the ICJ, and a report stating that an expert opinion is that there are reasonable grounds to consider this a genocide. A number of academic experts in human rights and genocide studies have also expressed similar concerns.

I understand that there have been allegations against some individuals working with UNRWA, but my understanding is that there have been counter-claims that some individuals were coerced into giving accounts, that there has been a lack of evidence presented to allow an investigation to be completed into the allegations, and that there hasn't been a conclusion in relation to the allegations. I'm also not clear how the alleged actions of a small number of people affiliated with a large organisation (a major employer/service provider) mean that internationally respected courts and organisations are compromised, especially if the actions of individual IDF soldiers are to be taken as not reflective of the wider position of the IDF, which is a much smaller organisation than the UN (which is huge)?

Let’s agree to disagree