To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

There is a difference between Palestinians and Hamas. Please stop conflating the two as it is offensive.

Why should they not be compared? Why should the Palestinians be held to a lower standard?

Not to mention that Hamas and Israel are 2 entirely different things, it is impossible to compare. One is a terrorist organisation, the other is the government of a powerful occupying nation.

What is your experience in relation to military strategy, working in combat zones, humanitarian work or ethics that qualifies you to have such confidence that you are right and multiple experts are wrong?

I don't think they talk as if Israel are worse than Hamas at all. You can acknowledge that Israel are failing to adhere to international law and failing in their responsibilities as an occupying power and that there is probable cause to believe that they may be committing genocide and acknowledge that hamas are bad. One does not excuse the other. There are no exceptions when it comes to adhering to International and Humanitarian laws as I'm sure you agree there shouldn't be.

Yes. I’m talking about misunderstanding Hamas. Hamas are not a conventional enemy. They are jihadists. People talk as if Israel are worse. This is not true.

@march10th

I sleep well thank you since I know that I am not responsible for what is happening in Gaza, or Sudan, or Iran, or Haiti or Yeman etc. I donate where I can.

You ranting at people on mumsnet doesn't improve anything in Gaza or anywhere else. It merely puts people off bothering to post, hence clearly declining numbers of people on these threads. I've read a couple of others say similar things they don't bother.

Do you think the ICJ are just 'misunderstanding' or 'in denial'? Is that why they have ordered Israel to ensure aid gets in? Do you think the Irish government are just 'misunderstanding' too and that is why they are intervening in South Africas case? The UN? Save the children? Amnesty international? All just 'misunderstanding' and 'in denial'?

I'm not saying that, you said that. Stop saying what you think people are saying.

When someone replies on a point mentioned dealing with a specific point (as I said) they are answering that point. I made that perfectly clear because I know people like you misinterpret on purpose. Make stupid comparison with The Americas and Aboriginal people's don't be shocked when someone corrects you.

I think many people misunderstand, or are in denial about, the nature of the enemy Israel faces.
@CaterhamReconstituted I would flip this and say you are in complete denial about the extent of the atrocities happening in Gaza and war crimes being committed by the IDF. I am neither Palestinian nor Israeli but if I was I know which "enemy" I would rather face and it is the one that calls itself a moral army.

You are consuming nothing but Israeli propaganda and are continually minimising and trying to justify what the IDF and Israeli government are doing so I for one will no longer engage with you

Responding to a few points from different posters.

No, there is no equivalence between the atrocities of 7 October and IDF military action in Gaza. One was the deliberate murder of civilians because they were Jewish. The other is collateral damage in justified military action. Body count is not the moral measure here. It is about intent.

Yes there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza now. Aid is going in, it’s wrong to say it isn’t. Yes the Israelis have stopped some trucks, for security reasons. Similarly, in some circumstances civilians have been deliberately killed, but that is because Israel are facing an enemy who use civilians as human bombs so soldiers can’t always been sure if they are going to explode when they get near.

I think many people misunderstand, or are in denial about, the nature of the enemy Israel faces.

There is also no equivalence between what Hamas did on 7 October and Israeli military action now

30,000 + people shot, bombed, torn to bits, buried alive, starved, denied medical treatment....

Again, what Hamas and other groups did on 7/10 was beyond evil BUT it does not justify the terrible suffering inflicted on the Palestinians.

..and for what? it wont secure peace for Israel, in fact the exact opposite as even more extremist groups take hold in Gaza and the West bank.

Its all so short sighted and seems to be designed to keep Netanyahu out of court.

@CaterhamReconstituted there is extremely concerning footage coming out from Gaza, from a wide range of sources, indicating that civilians are being killed in 'avoidable' circumstances.

Shooting unarmed people, who are waving white flags and stating that they are surrendering. Shooting children. Shooting people and then conveniently having bulldozers to bury their bodies in the sand.

Destroying hospital equipment. Refusing to allow basic medical supplies through crossings.

Using weaponry designed to cause maximum damage and casualties rather than targeted strikes. Moving people to 'safe zones' and then bombing the 'safe zones'.

Those are just a few examples which suggest the IDF's military strategy is not intended to minimise civilian casualties. Urban combat does involve a likelihood of some civilian deaths, but not like this.

There were posts saying that Israeli military action in Gaza is the same as the Holocaust. This is an anti-Semitic lie.
It is one posters, albeit inaccurate, opinion not an antisemitic lie

There is also no equivalence between what Hamas did on 7 October and Israeli military action now.
How so? What happened on October 7th was an horrific terrorist attack on innocent civilians. The IDF are now bombing, maiming killing, starving innocent civilians and raising a country to the ground.

In past posts you have stated that people aren't starving and Israel are not blocking aid despite the mounting evidence to the contrary so I would suggest you also do a bit lying too

But it does feel like we’re going round in circles as any defence against genocide, which will unavoidably cause civilian deaths, is interpreted as lacking humanity towards the Palestinian people, which is another falsehood.
This sentence does not make sense, what do you mean by defence against genocide?

unavoidably cause civilian deaths, causing civilian deaths and starving people is most definitely avoidable

There were posts saying that Israeli military action in Gaza is the same as the Holocaust. This is an anti-Semitic lie.

There is also no equivalence between what Hamas did on 7 October and Israeli military action now.

There has been much back and forth on this and people have explained where they are coming from. But it does feel like we’re going round in circles as any defence against genocide, which will unavoidably cause civilian deaths, is interpreted as lacking humanity towards the Palestinian people, which is another falsehood.

Interesting that you’ve not asked those posting anti-Semitic messages to leave.

Can you point out the antisemitic messages and posters? There is no doubt they would have been deleted if there was any

As awful as 7/10 was & it was a heinous crime, the ordinary Palestinian has paid a terrible cost and will continue to do so, who is ever going to rebuild Gaza? the Palestinians left, will be forced to move to God knows where or live in refugee camps for the rest of their days.

There is no doubt in my mind that the IDF does not care one jot for Gazan lives, and anyone killed (in their minds) are either Hamas, potential Hamas or supporters of Hamas..... which is how an Israeli Govt minister defended the shooting dead of a child by an Israeli Policeman, even suggesting he should get an award.

Anti semitic posts will be removed by MN if you report them but it would be good if you could at least look at what the IDF is doing with a more open mind.

@CaterhamReconstituted

I think it's important to remember that, just as there are Jewish and Israeli people using this forum, there are also Arab and Muslim people here.

Some of us are watching the killing and maiming of our friends, colleagues, even family members happening in real time, by the IDF in Gaza.

My loved ones who have been killed were not Hamas. Those facing death and suffering horrible injuries are not Hamas.

Does their blood matter less because of their nationality/ethnicity or faith? Because that is how some posts are coming across.

Hamas wants to commit genocide against the Jewish people. There really is no doubt about this. Remember 7 October? Let’s talk about the humanity there.

I will happily leave this thread - it seems you want an echo chamber and not a genuine discussion. Interesting that you’ve not asked those posting anti-Semitic messages to leave.

It was the OP who compared the Americas and Aboriginal people with Gaza. My answer still stands those people were wiped out enmass.

You've compared very recent conflicts which is fair enough. The OP didn't do that, hence my reply to them.

Yes a very warped logic basically demonstrates that there is zero justification

The argument that Israel has to essentially commit genocide to protect itself from a potential/imagined genocide is and always has been a head scratcher.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-government-continues-block-aid-response-despite-icj-genocide-court-ruling

Aid still getting blocked. Oxygen, incubators, water and sanitation gear.