To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

You don’t think that if Israelis were pacifists, and didn’t resist attack, Hamas wouldn’t simply murder all the Jews?

That’s not fact though. That’s just your opinion, which is fine. It’s not my opinion, which is just as valid as yours.

It’s the entrance to a rabbit-hole. I don’t really understand the question anyway.

All lives are of equal value. Sometimes war is justified though, even if there is a high civilian cost. Pacifism is a completely unsupportable position. Imagine what would happen if Israelis were pacifists. All the Jews would die.

I'm asking to try to understand the basis of your opinion.

It is a dehumanising euphemism, which minimises the value of Palestinian lives. Many of their deaths have been avoidable. I’m a pacifist so I would never believe that any war is justified; Einstein said it better than me that ‘killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder’.

I don’t understand the point about experience or qualifications. It’s my opinion. People have different opinions. Do you say to those who have a different opinion to me that they cannot be appalled by Israel because they are not “qualified” or “experienced”?

@CaterhamReconstituted what experience or qualifications do you have that mean you can confidently say that the current level of civilian deaths is unavoidable, or to dispute the international consensus regarding the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

It’s a euphemism for unintentional deaths. Obviously they are innocent civilians. Civilian deaths are an unavoidable cost of war. It happens in many wars. It happened in the Second World War. It’s a horrible cost. But if we let the possibility of innocent deaths veto our ability to wage war, even when an enemy has declared war against you, then we would be all be living in the thousand year Reich. Sometimes war is justified, despite the cost.

Or like this entire University that was blown up that caused outrage. The US probed into the matter after it was publicly reported and the IDF recorded and posted themselves blowing it up. It later transpired it wasn't authorised, the senior commander just took it upon himself to blow it up.
It's a targeted approach at destroying the future education of the Palestinians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-68138210

I think it’s so disrespectful and dehumanising when somebody refers to the thousands of deaths as ‘collateral damage’. It just shows where the value of Palestinian lives stand in their eyes. The innocent men, women, children, and babies who have been killed in Gaza (or indeed in any conflict around the world) are not collateral damage; they are precious fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, whose lives have been callously cut short; and many of whom’s deaths can only truthfully be called murder.

@CaterhamReconstituted some of them definitely are acting like terrorists and have no qualms recording themselves/admitting to acts of terrorism.
Like the reservist soldier who casually spoke about all the things they blew up, including a UN office they came across that was set up to help those affected by the war. Just talking about it really casually

I think we can all agree Hamas have been condenmed over and over again. I think we can also agree that the world would be a better place without terrorists and nobody should be one but also nobody should be an illegal occupier, nobody should commit apartheid, nobody should commit collective punishment. Peace and love all around would be great but that isn't the situation is it? Hamas have acted badly, the Israeli government have acted badly and innocent people or 'collateral damage' as you seem fond of calling them are the ones suffering.

@CaterhamReconstituted what are your qualifications or experience in this area?

Indiscriminate killing of tens of thousands of civilians? Bombing hospitals, refugee camps, schools? Starving people to death? Seems pretty much like terrorism to me.

They are not behaving like terrorists

You seem OK with Israel behaving like terrorists though?

I've just seen your edit. Not that I'm arsed going into what Hamas is or isn't, but saying they're jihadists whose reason for being is to kill Jews is incredibly ignorant. Maybe other posters are correcting this misinformation you keep repeating?

I don’t think any nation state should behave like terrorists, I’m saying that nobody should be behaving like terrorists. Terrorists are also subject to legal frameworks.

I’ve seen posts on MN that has characterised the 7 Oct atrocities as legitimate resistance. Somebody the other day compared them with the French Resistance.

But thats not how it works.

Western Governments operate within a legal framework, look at how British soldiers have ended up in court following various "shoot to kill" scandals?

Hamas, like all terrorist organisations behave outside of the normal rules of warfare, nation states should not sink to their level or we are no better.

I have never read anything on MN that in anyway excuses the 7/10 atrocities.

I think everyone should be held to the same standards as human beings. Hamas don’t escape moral condemnation for the 7 Oct massacre because they are a terrorist group. By that logic, you could argue that Israel should not be condemned because they are a terror state and colonial occupier (as some people would call them), outside the bounds of civilisation.

No, we hold people to the same standard.

Palestinians have the right to live free from the human rights abuses of Hamas.

You don't think the government of every country should be held to a higher standard than that of a terrorist organisation? You think governments should be allowed to act like terrorists or am I misunderstanding you?

@CaterhamReconstituted
No, there is no equivalence between the atrocities of 7 October and IDF military action in Gaza. One was the deliberate murder of civilians because they were Jewish. The other is collateral damage in justified military action. Body count is not the moral measure here. It is about intent

The IDF action in Gaza is no longer justifiable, gone way beyond that now, IDF is deliberately killing Gazans, they even targeted a MSF aid station because it featured in a UK news report.

Yes there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza now. Aid is going in, it’s wrong to say it isn’t. Yes the Israelis have stopped some trucks, for security reasons. Similarly, in some circumstances civilians have been deliberately killed, but that is because Israel are facing an enemy who use civilians as human bombs so soldiers can’t always been sure if they are going to explode when they get near

The aid going in is minimal, there are 2.1m people that need to be fed, thats not far short of the population of Greater Manchester.

Pretty sure the Israeli hostages shot dead by their own side were stripped to the waist, with white flags, pleading in Hebrew.... IDF gunned them down, that to me was when i finally realised the IDF have no concern for Gazans at all.

I think many people misunderstand, or are in denial about, the nature of the enemy Israel faces

....and Israel has made this very real threat far far worse.

How have I misunderstood?

You didn't ask: "why should Hamas be held to a lower standard?"

You asked: "why should the Palestinians be held to a lower standard?"

It’s simple.

They are not collateral damage, they are human beings.

Their deaths were avoidable.

You misunderstand. I am asking why different groups should not be held to the same moral standards.