To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

Gaza is an occupied territory according to the UN and the majority of democratic nations.
it is essentially a danger to it's neighbours.
That is incredibly offensive and you are whitewashing Israel's role completely.

The solution here isn't "well just let them import missiles from Iraq and kill everyone". The solution is for them to stop doing that, become safe to their neighbours and then everyone can go back to living.
And you accuse others of gaslighting!

If you read all the posts @CaterhamReconstituted has written over the past few days it is obvious they are blinded by Israeli propaganda and if you challenge them it prompts to make more and more ridiculous statements.

This sentence alone gives you a sense of where their head is at
If people genuinely think that Israel are deliberately killing aid workers, even though the deliberate killing of innocent people goes against their moral code.

The gulf in the understanding of what is happening is too wide. That's about the only accurate thing you have said

Gaza is not an occupied territory. It is under blockade by Egypt and Israel because it is essentially a danger to it's neighbours.

The solution here isn't "well just let them import missiles from Iraq and kill everyone". The solution is for them to stop doing that, become safe to their neighbours and then everyone can go back to living.

Israel, from the moment a partition plan was suggested by the peel commission, accepted Palestine as a separate nation. They also accepted the state of Israel without the full lands they had asked for and went ahead with the establishment of their state, Palestine refused the same offer.

There was never, ever, ever any movement to destroy Palestine, conquer land beyond what was given to them or to deny Palestinian independence. There has never been an Israeli government elected on that platform either.

The Arabs (and I say Arabs as it was the pan Arab league rather than Palestine alone) from the offset refused to accept any Jewish state and vowed from the offset to annihilate and destroy it. Then lost a war trying to do that.

Hamas have done the same, they are entirely explicit in this goal. They are very clear. No two states. No Israel. And while several Israeli governments have worked very hard to make reasonable offers of two state solutions and peace, every offer they have made has been met with refusal of anything other than removal of Israel either directly or de facto.

Those are the simple facts.

It is also a fact that the current Israeli government does not have any interest in an independent Palestinian state and has done almost nothing to promote that, and has rather actively made things worse. Netanyahu was finance minister at the time the choice was made to disengage settlements from Gaza and he was dead against it. He resigned actually.

Why? He said removing every Jew from Gaza would turn it into a terrorist camp that threatened the security of Israel. And, very sadly, he was absolutely right. Gazans, had they wanted freedom, independence and prosperity certainly had a very easy opportunity to have it, but their choice was all-or-nothing.

Do I blame them? Not really. I think they have been riled up to believe it's somehow just to believe the land is theirs and they must take it back. But such attitudes cannot work. Had Jews, or any other people, taken the same attitude, then war would never end.

Palestinians are not unique in losing part of their land. This has happened to people through the ages, and to no people MORE than Jews! You simply have a choice to move forward and prosper, or to keep warring. They have chosen the latter.

And, sadly, Israelis are human being just like you. There comes a point where people - even the ones who have actively campaigned for an independent Palestine - will just think "why am I bothering if these people will just not accept compromise and want to kill me?". So men like Netanyahu will be bolstered by the violence.

It is a vicious cycle, and it can only end when there is a Palestinian movement for acceptance of two, safe, peaceful independent states.

@CaterhamReconstituted there are plenty of human rights organisations who have said the same that Israel is deliberately targeting aid workers
Just this morning Biden expressed his outrage at the amount of aid workers killed in Gaza. Are they all anti-semitic?

"This conflict has been one of the worst in recent memory in terms of how many aid workers have been killed," Biden said in a statement "This is a major reason why distributing humanitarian aid in Gaza has been so difficult — because Israel has not done enough to protect aid workers trying to deliver desperately needed help to civilians.
"Incidents like yesterday’s simply should not happen. Israel has also not done enough to protect civilians,"

Thanks for the reply. I’m not sure where we can go with this, if people genuinely think that Israel are deliberately killing aid workers, even though the deliberate killing of innocent people goes against their moral code.

Not inadvertently killing them, or stopping some aid because of security reasons or because they fear that it will be stolen by Hamas. Or not doing enough to facilitate aid. These would be reasonable observations. But deliberately killing aid workers, the wicked little Jews. Not sure what else there is to say in this discussion. The gulf in the understanding of what is happening is too wide.

"Do you actually think, just to be clear, that they (and other aid workers in other incidents) were deliberately, intentionally killed? If so, why on earth would that possibly make any sense?"

It would make sense because the Israeli Govt has told us quite clearly they want minimal aid to go into Gaza amongst many other similar proclamations. 70% of the Israeli population apparently do not want aid to go into Gaza.
So if you want to achieve that goal, you target aid givers whilst of course saying it was a mistake/accident/but Hamas etc. You deny furiously you are hindering the provision of aid in anyway whatsoever despite everyone saying you are
I also think the Israel Govt would think it would get away with it because they have got away with so much previously. The US tells them off but actually does nothing. Blinken has a repeat button, just saying the same thing every time . All words no action.

This time though it maybe a bit different

I know what has happened. I was aggrieved to read about the World Central Kitchen workers this week. This was a tragic incident and there will be an investigation into it.

Do you actually think, just to be clear, that they (and other aid workers in other incidents) were deliberately, intentionally killed? If so, why on earth would that possibly make any sense?

@CaterhamReconstituted do you actually believe what you've written in the last paragraph there?

Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

We’ve been around this loop on this thread. Of course innocent people die in the war. This is a terrible but unavoidable cost. You have to weigh up the cost with the justice of the war. Israel are defending themselves against a genocidal enemy. The stakes could not be higher. Asking Israel not to complete the mission in Rafah would be like having asked the Allies to stop at the gates of Berlin.

Evacuation that Israel has asked for will ensure innocent people move to safe areas. Of course some innocent people will still be unfortunately and tragically killed. And no, Israel do not deliberate bomb safe areas, or deliberately kill aid workers. If this happens it is because Hamas has moved into a particular area, it is an accident or the claims that this has happened are anti-Israel propaganda.

@LemonyTicket Israel has not always accepted Palestine.

If the Israeli government and political system accepted Palestine, there wouldn't be public declarations from significant figures about how proud they are of having prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state.

If the Israeli government accepted Palestine, 'settlers' wouldn't be seizing land, oppressing people and killing people in the West Bank.

If the Israeli government accepted Palestine, IDF bulldozers probably wouldn't have flattened Palestinian homes and the people attempting to protect them in Rafah pre-withdrawal.

If the Israeli government accepted the rights of Palestinian people to live, there probably wouldn't be the level of potential war crimes going on in Gaza that there are. There is evidence of systematic targeting of essential infrastructure and groups of people, including targeting of children, journalists and healthcare professionals. Efforts to get aid in to prevent starvation have been hindered at every turn. That does not match up with an underlying acceptance of people's rights to live.

What about the last 6 months makes you think that will happen?

I have a masters in middle eastern history. I haven't "missed" anything. Thanks though. I am sure you have watched a lot of TikTok. They did not agree to it. The assassination did not stop a peace agreement. The Palestinians said no. They always have. That's historical record.

Beyond history, in today's actual world in front of your very eyes, there is a government in control of Gaza with a charter and everything. They even go on TV repeatedly and tell you in very clear terms: they will NEVER accept Israel, and their goal is to kill all Jews and take Israel over. Perhaps you think they're joking?

Jews have as much, if not more, right to live in the middle east (and particularly Israel) as Muslims do. Muslims conquered the whole lot and made everyone dhimmi who wasn't a Muslim. It was entirely their choice to conquer and subjugate others and I don't particularly judge them for history - it happened and the past is the past.

But the fact remains, the entire Middle East does not belong to Muslims. And they have forced all other people's out of their homelands either by conversion, ethnic cleansing or making life unpleasant. This is why every surrounding country is now 95% or more Muslim. And they have their way they want to live, which is evidently intolerant of others.

Even today in 2024 minority groups experience horrific persecution. The plight of non Muslims in Sudan, Pakistan, Iraq or many other places is completely tragic. But of course, you care nowt about that. The Yazidis, the indigenous Kurds of Northern Iraq are, to this day, in daily genocide. Thousands of their women are missing after being taken as sex slaves at ages as young as 10. The remaining women force fed contraceptives so they cannot breed more non-Muslims. I believe just a few weeks ago we watched these girls burned alive in a cage as they refused to convert.

Perhaps in your mind their is some fantasy where this is righteous. In mine, there is not. Just the simple fact that if you can't treat minorities like equals, you haven't got a leg to stand on when they want independence from you. And so Israel stands as the ONE tiny, teeny scrap of land that gained such independence for an indigenous minority, and it's a bloody tragedy you do not fully support that.

There exists no possibility, nor has there EVER existed, a possibility for Jews to live as equals with the same rights as a Muslim on their own ancestral lands. As such, it's completely right and just that they have independence to do so. I am sure, like my family, almost all those people would have far preferred not being colonised, expelled, murdered, subjugated or deported in the first place - but here we are!

"It's hard to accept a nation who keeps killing your friends, family, neighbours etc and stealing your possessions" Yes, it is. Gaza alone has committed 2300 terrorist attacks against Israel and fired hundreds of thousands of missiles at them. I think perhaps 7/10 was a point where they'd simply had enough.

Israel has always accepted Palestine. Since the very first offer of division. It was the Arab nations who would not accept Israel. This is simple, irrefutable fact.

Gaza is not occupied. It is under blockade, because the objective of it's government and many of it's people is to use every means and opportunity to murder Jewish people with a goal of annihilating the entire country.

When they stop, the blockade stops.

I am not a mindreader, but I'd imagine Israel and most of it's people would be delighted to live peacefully with it's neighbour. I don't imagine needing to spend billions of dollars to fight off daily missiles is the ideal goal of anyone.

Sadly, Gaza is not interested in that.

@Parkingt111 the poster seems to see nothing wrong with how it was phrased, either...

Exactly, that was a pretty bloodthirsty statement in itself considering even the US are opposed to it because of the immense risk to civilians who were forcibly displaced to Rafah by Israel

Gaza has not been occupied since 2005. The only reason Israel are there now is because of a war that Hamas started.

Please. I clearly mean I look forward to the defeat of Hamas. Not the deaths of innocent people.

They agreed to 30 years ago and then someone assassinated (not a Palestinian) Yitzhak Rabin, maybe you missed that. Stop victim blaming the Palestinians.

As for trying to turn back time you might also have missed the Israeli claim to the land because their ancestors may have lived there 3000 years ago. The Palestinians who have been displaced in living memory are not allowed to return and those still living in the OT are having their homes stolen everyday.

It's hard to accept a nation who keeps killing your friends, family, neighbours etc and stealing your possessions. Obviously a sign of their inferiority in your eyes.

The Palestinians must accept Israel and move forward, like everyone else did.

But will Israel accept the Palestinians? Gaza is an occupied territory they have not been let move forward no nation could in those circumstances, The West Bank has to endure constant illegal settlements, they are getting removed from their homes by force, this is not in the past this is their present.

Please bear in mind that some of us have loved ones in Rafah and elsewhere in Gaza. What you appear to be looking forward to as a reckoning is likely to be their deaths.

It is.

And it's also absolutely wrong to hang around for 80 years trying to turn back time or kill innocent people for power and control. People must accept the modern world as it is, with everyone's historic sadness considered equally, and move forward.

I would not condone a single bullet or bomb dropped on the countries that ethnically cleansed my family. That is entirely pointless warmongering destruction.

The Palestinians must accept Israel and move forward, like everyone else did.

Absolutely. Accusations that Israel are “ethnically cleansing” the Palestinians is just another blood libel.

There is no comparison between 7 Oct attacks and Israel’s defence against genocide.

I pray the war ends soon. A reckoning will soon take place in Rafah - this is where the blood-thirsty genocidal monsters of Hamas will hopefully be destroyed.

@LemonyTicket I'm sorry that happened to your family. It's absolutely wrong for anyone to be persecuted and driven from their home because of their faith and/or ethnicity.

Ethnic cleansing is not when a group of people say they are going to kill you, ethnically cleanse you and you try and stop them from doing so.

My family were ethnically cleansed out of the middle east. Not because they were trying to kill other people, but because they were Jewish!