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Conflict in the Middle East

To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

535 replies

march10th · 26/03/2024 17:47

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

OP posts:
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17
TextureSeeker · 03/04/2024 19:45

This seems quite a desperate response, if I’m honest.

The poster said kids, I assumed she was talking about children. She has since clarified that they are not in fact kids but young adults that they train to kill.

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 19:40

TextureSeeker · 03/04/2024 19:15

Israel has a relatively small military - most of whom are actually kids on national service

That's crazy. I know we are told again and again that Hamas train kids to be fighters but I had no idea that Israel forces children to be fighters and do national service.

Israel has a military of about 160k. It's a small country, that was not at war. Many are aged 18 - 21 and work in jobs such as office assistants, teachers, interpreters or maintenance roles. Many of those very brave young people went to defend their country after it was invaded and many of their people were murdered and kidnapped.

Hamas strapped suicide vests to orphaned 15 years olds in exchange for money and promises of 72 virgins.

I am sure this is completely the same thing :)

Auvergne63 · 03/04/2024 19:38

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 19:07

@Auvergne63

Are you implying Israeli authorities let their citizens be murdered deliberately? If you are beset with these mad conspiracy theories you need to get help. What kind of a person even comes up with something like that. The "Israeli authorities" were regular people, some of whom had family and friends butchered that day.

Israel has a relatively small military - most of whom are actually kids on national service. They had to call in reservists and people have travelled from all over to help defend it. They were not prepared to be invaded that day, and Hamas attacked their nearby military and murdered everyone.

The UN most certainly is biased against Israel, as is evident from some of their behavior from turning a blind eye to the infiltration of UNRWA by Hamas (despite being warned for years) or their insane behavior like awarding Iran the role of global human rights chair. The UN isn't a magical place - they have staff who have politics just like you or me. And those staff are heavily weighted against Israel.

Their data on civilian deaths, however, cannot be disputed. It is taken from a census and independently verified with at least one eye witness. That procedure was implemented because Hamas were (surprise) exaggerating their death tolls in the media.

Are you implying Israeli authorities let their citizens be murdered deliberately? If you are beset with these mad conspiracy theories you need to get help.
No but I am questioning the response time of the IDF. I think it is a reasonable question as asked repeatedly by news outlet, such as the BBC, including the Israeli press.

https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10/09/where-was-the-idf-intelligence-and-why-did-it-take-so-long-all-the-difficult-questions/

NotSoBigCrocodile · 03/04/2024 19:37

TextureSeeker · 03/04/2024 19:15

Israel has a relatively small military - most of whom are actually kids on national service

That's crazy. I know we are told again and again that Hamas train kids to be fighters but I had no idea that Israel forces children to be fighters and do national service.

This seems quite a desperate response, if I’m honest.

Military service isn’t uncommon. Switzerland, for example, has military service. Would you say that Switzerland forces children to be fighters? Would you say that Finland forces children to be fighters? Or do you just use that terminology in relation to Israel.

The only reason we don’t have military service in the U.K. is because there had been enough blood spilled in WW2, enough destruction, that we all made a concerted effort to live in peace. Thus, we no longer have the threat of war and no need for military service.

Other counties are no so lucky to live without threat of war, and so military service is needed. Naturally. And after everything the Jewish people have been through, I would be very surprised if they didn’t have military service in Israel. It’s certainly not “crazy” as you put it. That’s almost farcical, I can’t even tell if you are serious.

Military service certainly isn’t the same as what Hamas does. Even people in the West are well aware of the tactics used in our own countries to groom young people and send them on to their deaths as “martyrs”. Trying to equate the grooming of young people to military service is again, almost farcical, and I really hope that you are not serious.

Kindatired · 03/04/2024 19:19

@LemonyTicket
You can see from @Auvergne63 ’s chart that road traffic accidents kill kill more Israel’s than terrorists. The scale of Israel’s terrorist problem is similar to the troubles in Northern Ireland. But the British did not take the approach of mass extermination of whole neighbourhoods in case a terrorist might be in the basement. Therefore I think that is very unlikely that current prime ministers of the UK would do so.

Also your comments about Muslims are offensive and I think Islamophobic. In relation to women’s rights, there is some very good research from the Norwegian refugee council and the University of Exeter on this topic. Basically it indicated that the blockade of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank is inherently linked to the lack of progression on this front and puts the blame firmly at Israel's feet.

TextureSeeker · 03/04/2024 19:15

Israel has a relatively small military - most of whom are actually kids on national service

That's crazy. I know we are told again and again that Hamas train kids to be fighters but I had no idea that Israel forces children to be fighters and do national service.

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 19:07

@Auvergne63

Are you implying Israeli authorities let their citizens be murdered deliberately? If you are beset with these mad conspiracy theories you need to get help. What kind of a person even comes up with something like that. The "Israeli authorities" were regular people, some of whom had family and friends butchered that day.

Israel has a relatively small military - most of whom are actually kids on national service. They had to call in reservists and people have travelled from all over to help defend it. They were not prepared to be invaded that day, and Hamas attacked their nearby military and murdered everyone.

The UN most certainly is biased against Israel, as is evident from some of their behavior from turning a blind eye to the infiltration of UNRWA by Hamas (despite being warned for years) or their insane behavior like awarding Iran the role of global human rights chair. The UN isn't a magical place - they have staff who have politics just like you or me. And those staff are heavily weighted against Israel.

Their data on civilian deaths, however, cannot be disputed. It is taken from a census and independently verified with at least one eye witness. That procedure was implemented because Hamas were (surprise) exaggerating their death tolls in the media.

Auvergne63 · 03/04/2024 18:51

I don't overlook anything. Yes Hamas has stated their intention clearly; there is no doubt about it. Military, they cannot achieve it.
You also appear to dismiss the anti Palestinian rhetoric by successive Israeli prime ministers as "nonsense", Netanyahu's actions now seems to match his predecessors' words. The Israeli government is under investigation by the ICJ.
Why do you think that is?
I have a question to ask you. Why did the IDF take so long to come to the rescue of the victims on that terrible day? Why were the terrorist allowed to carry on their hideous crimes for 6 hours?
The truth is Sunak or Macron would not be in this position, because they'd have obliterated Gaza a long time ago. Most countries would have. Because most countries are pretty violent and horrible. Israel, whatever vile garbage some current politicians spew, has really tried pretty hard not to kill people historically. And that's just unavoidable reality.
Most countries=nasties
Israel= goody.
What a black and white view of the world.
Finally, you quote the UN but I thought the UN was biased against Israel. You can't have it both way.
Have a pleasant evening.
Please do use call me dear. It is patronising.

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 18:40

FOJN · 03/04/2024 17:27

I don't have a tiktok account, sorry to disappoint.

Are you claiming that the Palestinians have never agreed to recognise Israel?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

The Letters of Mutual Recognition were exchanged between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization on 9 September 1993. In their correspondence, Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestinian political leader Yasser Arafat agreed to begin cooperating towards a peaceful solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, renounced Palestinian militancy and terrorism, and accepted UNSC Resolution 242 and UNSC Resolution 338. Israel recognized the PLO as a legitimate authority representing the Palestinian people and agreed to commence comprehensive negotiations for the Israeli–Palestinian peace process. These initial agreements between Rabin and Arafat laid the groundwork for the Oslo I Accord on 13 September 1993, effectively serving as its preamble.

Perhaps you got your degree before 1993.

Whilst Hamas have not agreed to recognise Israel they did agree to a truce and a two state solution.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=While%20initially%20seeking%20a%20state,1967%20borders%20without%20recognizing%20Israel.

While initially seeking a state in all of Mandatory Palestine, Hamas began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007[64][65][66] In 2017, Hamas released a new charter that supported a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without recognizing Israel.[67][68][69][70][71] Hamas's repeated offers of a truce (for a period of 10–100 years[72]) based on the 1967 borders are seen by many[who?] as consistent with a two-state solution.

If you insist that the Palestinians must move on from the Nakba ( which you deny happened) then why are you claiming that Jewish people have more right to the land because they were displaced by Muslims hundred of years ago. If 80 years ago is ancient history which has no relevance to today then why do events far further back in history matter.

"It's hard to accept a nation who keeps killing your friends, family, neighbours etc and stealing your possessions" Yes, it is. Gaza alone has committed 2300 terrorist attacks against Israel and fired hundreds of thousands of missiles at them. I think perhaps 7/10 was a point where they'd simply had enough.

How many Palestinians has Israel killed? The daily persecution and oppression of the Palestinians over decades are acts of terrorism.

You're skipping out an awful lot of fairly important information. Arafat briefly went along with negotiations and then backed out. He rejected the offer made to him by Ehud Barak based on a two-state solution and declined to negotiate for an alternative plan. So your half of the story doesn't mean much as it never materialised. Clinton said it was a waste of time!

The movements Israel made for peace were fruitless. Disengaging Gaza was a huge concession, and the response they got was Hamas. Bombs fired at them within a few weeks of leaving, and declarations of imminent annihilation which have not stopped since. This is hardly a sign people want peace with you, is it?

Whilst I was hopeful Hamas were not completely stupid and might see the best thing to do was move forwards in peace, they had clearly instead spent literally years planning this horrific terror attack which they would have been fully aware would kill any peace negotiations for years, perhaps even forever. And they have since gone on live television and stated openly they'd use a two state solution to plot a takeover and annihilation of Israel.

I don't deny the "Nakba" happened. I deny it's uniqueness. The same happened to Jews and many other people, including my own family. In fact I understate, because unlike the dispossession of most people's, this occurred at least partly because Palestinians chose to launch a war and then lost. The Nakba is in effect a very long grieving period for losing a war and being unable to accept the consequences like every other country on the planet in history.

The people who did not want to murder Jews and throw them in the sea stayed put and were made Israeli citizens. My family would have loved to be allowed to stay and be citizens of the countries where they'd lived for generations - but no such option was given, so excuse me if I don't join your bandwagon in believing this sad event was somehow so terrible that no one can possibly move on.

I do not believe Jewish people have "more right". I believe they have equal right. What was once Israel is now no longer Israel. Parts of it are in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Jews are not murdering everyone to get it back. They accepted part of the land, and Palestinians had to accept part of it too. That is the choice people need to make, unless they want to fight to the death for it - and if they choose that then what do you want? Israel to commit suicide and just let them have it?

The fact is that Muslims took over this land and they implemented Islamic rule, which included making all people who were NOT Muslim dhimmi, subordinate to Muslims in a legal and very real sense. They have a certain way of life and living and certain belief systems that link their politics / law to their religious beliefs. And that's fine. What is NOT fine is to force with guns and bombs that all indigenous people succumb to this.

Palestine, has one of the most fundamentalist populations on Earth, with only Afghanistan and Pakistan scoring higher on the scales of religious piety. They almost all believe that homosexuality should be illegal for example. And that's up to them, but they cannot force ALL people to live this way.

Jews are indigenous to Israel. The Mosque is literally built ON TOP OF the Temple. It is their home too. And now they have a tiny piece of it (certainly not all) to rule themselves as they wish to live. They want western democracy and liberalism. They want freedoms. They want a country where Jews, Christians and Muslims are equal under law. They want democracy. They want music festivals where women dance in tiny clothes.

Why should they not be allowed this independence? The entire middle east simple does not belong to Muslims. Other people were there first and have just as much right to live THEIR belief system and THEIR way of life on those lands. It's as simple as that.

Palestinians were given 80% of the land by the Peel commission. They refused it. They were given 50% of the land by the UN. They refused it. Nothing other than 100% of the land is acceptable to them and it seems to me that most people just think "well just give it to them".

No. That isn't what justice or fairness looks like, they must share, just like everyone else had to.

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 18:19

Auvergne63 · 03/04/2024 17:02

Really? Here are some facts.
CHARTS: Deaths and Injuries in Israel-Palestine since 2000 (israelpalestinetimeline.org)
So please tell me what would happen to say Sunak or Macron if they stated publicly " Insert any nationality/ethnicity would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and the walls.
Would you find this acceptable?
Words are powerful and when words are uttered by leaders, they are sending a message, openly or tacitly to the population.

Yes REALLY 😥

My statement was "Israel killed less civilians in NINE YEARS than Gazans killed on 7/10 in six hours"

Each civilian (or any) casualty is recorded by the UN here: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties This is tracked by census and independently verified. It is absolutely irrefutable.

If you care to filter out CIVILIAN deaths by ISRAELI FORCES in the 9 year period from 6th October 2015 to 6th October 2023 the total number is 1232 - significantly less than were killed on October 7th in 6 hours - just as I said.

Only 470 of those were in Gaza.

Do I find it "acceptable"? I am not sure I have a choice dear. No one asked me. But in an active conflict zone over nine years despite tens of thousands of missiles fired at Israel and many, many, many attacks on it's citizens, I think that is a very low number of civilian deaths and indicative that Israel has never had any intent to kill Palestinians. Had they wanted to, that number would be 50x bigger. As Hamas clearly demonstrated in their six hour rampage on 7/10

I really don't like the language of some of the Israeli leadership, but as I said, there is simply no evidence that there has ever been an intent to kill Palestinians. Whatever nonsense they spout.

I also find it bewildering slightly that you overlook that the other side quite openly tell you they want to slaughter all Jews (not Israelis, JEWS) repeatedly, openly, with chest and pride and then literally show you this and in a six hour murderous rampage do exactly that and yet here you are sending me charts and graphs with all sorts of exclamation marks.

The truth is Sunak or Macron would not be in this position, because they'd have obliterated Gaza a long time ago. Most countries would have. Because most countries are pretty violent and horrible. Israel, whatever vile garbage some current politicians spew, has really tried pretty hard not to kill people historically. And that's just unavoidable reality.

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Data on casualties

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https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Auvergne63 · 03/04/2024 18:02

CaterhamReconstituted · 03/04/2024 15:56

I have not stated any falsehoods and I cannot understand how what I have said is offensive. If I have genuinely got a claim wrong then I would of course withdraw it. Details would be useful. But I feel over many posts Ive set out my position, which in brief summary is that:

  1. Israel has a right to exist
  2. Arabs have a claim to the land too, so some solution must be made to accommodate both peoples
  3. The Arabs have rejected statehood many times
  4. Anti-Semitism is rife in the Palestinian Territories and this is an impediment to peace
  5. Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organisation whom it is impossible to peacefully co-exist with
  6. Civilian casualties are a terrible but unavoidable cost of war
  7. Criticisms of Israel must be proportionate and accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing are clearly not proportionate

You may disagree with that. But accusing me of simply being offensive or in thrall to Israeli propaganda is not a reasonable position to hold in this argument.

Edited

I don't have time to go through all your posts to point out where you stated falsehood. I think another poster has pointed one at you, the bombing of safe "spaces".
The offensive bit, for me, is the term "The Arabs". It does not recognise the different nationalities/cultures/art/music and so on. I think what you mean is "The Muslims" because it is what the vast majority of these different people have in common.
I also find the usage of "The Jews" equally offensive because that how the Nazis referred to Jewish people.

FOJN · 03/04/2024 17:27

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 12:33

I have a masters in middle eastern history. I haven't "missed" anything. Thanks though. I am sure you have watched a lot of TikTok. They did not agree to it. The assassination did not stop a peace agreement. The Palestinians said no. They always have. That's historical record.

Beyond history, in today's actual world in front of your very eyes, there is a government in control of Gaza with a charter and everything. They even go on TV repeatedly and tell you in very clear terms: they will NEVER accept Israel, and their goal is to kill all Jews and take Israel over. Perhaps you think they're joking?

Jews have as much, if not more, right to live in the middle east (and particularly Israel) as Muslims do. Muslims conquered the whole lot and made everyone dhimmi who wasn't a Muslim. It was entirely their choice to conquer and subjugate others and I don't particularly judge them for history - it happened and the past is the past.

But the fact remains, the entire Middle East does not belong to Muslims. And they have forced all other people's out of their homelands either by conversion, ethnic cleansing or making life unpleasant. This is why every surrounding country is now 95% or more Muslim. And they have their way they want to live, which is evidently intolerant of others.

Even today in 2024 minority groups experience horrific persecution. The plight of non Muslims in Sudan, Pakistan, Iraq or many other places is completely tragic. But of course, you care nowt about that. The Yazidis, the indigenous Kurds of Northern Iraq are, to this day, in daily genocide. Thousands of their women are missing after being taken as sex slaves at ages as young as 10. The remaining women force fed contraceptives so they cannot breed more non-Muslims. I believe just a few weeks ago we watched these girls burned alive in a cage as they refused to convert.

Perhaps in your mind their is some fantasy where this is righteous. In mine, there is not. Just the simple fact that if you can't treat minorities like equals, you haven't got a leg to stand on when they want independence from you. And so Israel stands as the ONE tiny, teeny scrap of land that gained such independence for an indigenous minority, and it's a bloody tragedy you do not fully support that.

There exists no possibility, nor has there EVER existed, a possibility for Jews to live as equals with the same rights as a Muslim on their own ancestral lands. As such, it's completely right and just that they have independence to do so. I am sure, like my family, almost all those people would have far preferred not being colonised, expelled, murdered, subjugated or deported in the first place - but here we are!

"It's hard to accept a nation who keeps killing your friends, family, neighbours etc and stealing your possessions" Yes, it is. Gaza alone has committed 2300 terrorist attacks against Israel and fired hundreds of thousands of missiles at them. I think perhaps 7/10 was a point where they'd simply had enough.

I don't have a tiktok account, sorry to disappoint.

Are you claiming that the Palestinians have never agreed to recognise Israel?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

The Letters of Mutual Recognition were exchanged between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization on 9 September 1993. In their correspondence, Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestinian political leader Yasser Arafat agreed to begin cooperating towards a peaceful solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, renounced Palestinian militancy and terrorism, and accepted UNSC Resolution 242 and UNSC Resolution 338. Israel recognized the PLO as a legitimate authority representing the Palestinian people and agreed to commence comprehensive negotiations for the Israeli–Palestinian peace process. These initial agreements between Rabin and Arafat laid the groundwork for the Oslo I Accord on 13 September 1993, effectively serving as its preamble.

Perhaps you got your degree before 1993.

Whilst Hamas have not agreed to recognise Israel they did agree to a truce and a two state solution.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=While%20initially%20seeking%20a%20state,1967%20borders%20without%20recognizing%20Israel.

While initially seeking a state in all of Mandatory Palestine, Hamas began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007[64][65][66] In 2017, Hamas released a new charter that supported a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without recognizing Israel.[67][68][69][70][71] Hamas's repeated offers of a truce (for a period of 10–100 years[72]) based on the 1967 borders are seen by many[who?] as consistent with a two-state solution.

If you insist that the Palestinians must move on from the Nakba ( which you deny happened) then why are you claiming that Jewish people have more right to the land because they were displaced by Muslims hundred of years ago. If 80 years ago is ancient history which has no relevance to today then why do events far further back in history matter.

"It's hard to accept a nation who keeps killing your friends, family, neighbours etc and stealing your possessions" Yes, it is. Gaza alone has committed 2300 terrorist attacks against Israel and fired hundreds of thousands of missiles at them. I think perhaps 7/10 was a point where they'd simply had enough.

How many Palestinians has Israel killed? The daily persecution and oppression of the Palestinians over decades are acts of terrorism.

CaterhamReconstituted · 03/04/2024 17:24

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 17:17

@CaterhamReconstituted you actually made the claim repeatedly that it doesn't happen.

I need to head out, but here's an early article from the BBC showing that there were concerns from very early on...https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

If you search online, you can easily find more articles and analyses.

I'm not going to share the photos sent to me as firstly, I wouldn't do that to my friend and their family and secondly I don't think many people want to see photos of a toddler with shrapnel in their face.

Thanks. I’m heading out too actually. I’ve seen the claims about attacks on safe zones. Much of it is unclear at best. International law differentiates between safe zones and war zones. The two can be blurred when you have an enemy like Hamas who have an extensive network of tunnels under the Strip and will use their own civilians as human shields. There is no convincing evidence that Israel has asked civilians to move to an area so it can then better murder them there. Hamas and other anti-Israel outlets have claimed this but they have a vested interest in doing so.

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 17:17

@CaterhamReconstituted you actually made the claim repeatedly that it doesn't happen.

I need to head out, but here's an early article from the BBC showing that there were concerns from very early on...https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

If you search online, you can easily find more articles and analyses.

I'm not going to share the photos sent to me as firstly, I wouldn't do that to my friend and their family and secondly I don't think many people want to see photos of a toddler with shrapnel in their face.

Palestinian emergency services and local citizens search for victims in buildings destroyed during Israeli air raids in the southern Gaza Strip on 19 October 2023 in Khan Yunis, Gaza

Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’

The BBC has analysed four strikes in south Gaza, where civilians were told to evacuate to.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 17:12

You have said on several occasions, that the IDF do not bomb safe zones and the slightly more qualified that they do not deliberately bomb safe zones.

You've then said one reason why the IDF might choose to intentionally bomb a 'safe zone' (which makes it even less safe than just staying at home, really, given the concentration of people in a small area...) and one reason why the IDF might bomb a 'safe zone' but it not be their fault (because it's easy to bomb things by accident when you have extensive technological support for your bombing campaign... no, wait, it's actually pretty hard to bomb things by accident when you've got total oversight of the field of operations including clearly demarcated areas to which you've told civilians to move...).

Which doesn't change that IDF bombs are falling in 'safe zones', to which innocent people were herded.

ConnieCounter · 03/04/2024 17:09

CaterhamReconstituted · 03/04/2024 12:58

We’ve been around this loop on this thread. Of course innocent people die in the war. This is a terrible but unavoidable cost. You have to weigh up the cost with the justice of the war. Israel are defending themselves against a genocidal enemy. The stakes could not be higher. Asking Israel not to complete the mission in Rafah would be like having asked the Allies to stop at the gates of Berlin.

Evacuation that Israel has asked for will ensure innocent people move to safe areas. Of course some innocent people will still be unfortunately and tragically killed. And no, Israel do not deliberate bomb safe areas, or deliberately kill aid workers. If this happens it is because Hamas has moved into a particular area, it is an accident or the claims that this has happened are anti-Israel propaganda.

Edited

Thanks for the propaganda spiel. Too many untruths in there to even bother responding.

CaterhamReconstituted · 03/04/2024 17:08

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 17:05

And your evidence for that is ..?

You are the one making the claim…

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 17:05

And your evidence for that is ..?

CaterhamReconstituted · 03/04/2024 17:02

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 16:35

@CaterhamReconstituted if you want an example of something you've said that isn't true, you've insisted on several occasions that the IDF doesn't bomb safe zones. They do. Multiple agencies have verified accounts of this, eg the BBC's confirmation should still be available online, and I've seen the aftermath myself from pictures of survivors I have known. Yet despite multiple posters telling you about this, you continue to insist it isn't happening.

No, I said the IDF do not deliberately ask civilians to move to safe zones the better that it can then bomb and murder them there. If safe zones are bombed it is because the enemy has moved there or it’s an error.

Auvergne63 · 03/04/2024 17:02

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 16:42

Well, you could go on for days, but it doesn't change the fact that no Israeli government has ever been elected on a platform of killing Palestinians, nor has it ever been policy to kill Palestinians, nor have they ever attacked Palestine unprovoked or used the considerably military might to kill Palestinians.

So my logical brain tells me: there's no reason to think they have intention to kill Palestinians.

And with all the military might in the world and daily attacks - Israel killed less civilians in NINE YEARS than Gazans killed on 7/10 in six hours.

So the quotes are quotes. They are not backed up by facts.

Really? Here are some facts.
CHARTS: Deaths and Injuries in Israel-Palestine since 2000 (israelpalestinetimeline.org)
So please tell me what would happen to say Sunak or Macron if they stated publicly " Insert any nationality/ethnicity would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and the walls.
Would you find this acceptable?
Words are powerful and when words are uttered by leaders, they are sending a message, openly or tacitly to the population.

CHARTS: Deaths and Injuries in Israel-Palestine since 2000

At least 9,597 Palestinians (2,177 children) and 1,251 Israelis (134 children) have been killed by someone from the other side since September 2000. At least 101,558 Palestinians and 11,962 Israelis have been injured by someone from the other side sinc...

https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 16:42

Auvergne63 · 03/04/2024 16:32

Have you missed the Israeli leadership (although they have changed hands a few times) clearly stating their intentions regarding Palestinians?
Here are a few examples,
" The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs" Menachem Begin
" The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and the walls." Yitzhak Shamir
"Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Netanyahu
I could go on.

Well, you could go on for days, but it doesn't change the fact that no Israeli government has ever been elected on a platform of killing Palestinians, nor has it ever been policy to kill Palestinians, nor have they ever attacked Palestine unprovoked or used the considerably military might to kill Palestinians.

So my logical brain tells me: there's no reason to think they have intention to kill Palestinians.

And with all the military might in the world and daily attacks - Israel killed less civilians in NINE YEARS than Gazans killed on 7/10 in six hours.

So the quotes are quotes. They are not backed up by facts.

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 16:35

@CaterhamReconstituted if you want an example of something you've said that isn't true, you've insisted on several occasions that the IDF doesn't bomb safe zones. They do. Multiple agencies have verified accounts of this, eg the BBC's confirmation should still be available online, and I've seen the aftermath myself from pictures of survivors I have known. Yet despite multiple posters telling you about this, you continue to insist it isn't happening.

Auvergne63 · 03/04/2024 16:32

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 15:38

I think maybe access to the internet might be the entire problem.

You may have missed this: but since around 1936 the Palestinian leaderships (although they have changed hands a few times) have been very clear their intent is the deliberate slaughter, by any means available, of Jews.

Most recently, you may have missed when they flew in wearing parachutes and displayed their handiwork over live feed and then went on numerous TV interviews and said they'd do it again and again.

Have you missed the Israeli leadership (although they have changed hands a few times) clearly stating their intentions regarding Palestinians?
Here are a few examples,
" The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs" Menachem Begin
" The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and the walls." Yitzhak Shamir
"Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Netanyahu
I could go on.

BelleHathor · 03/04/2024 16:31

Efacsen · 03/04/2024 15:38

It seems to be working overtime and not just @CaterhamReconstituted it's every thread nearly!

But then killing overseas aid workers whether by accident or design has turned out to be a bit of an own goal so there's bound to be lots of pushback

It's been a bad bad week, (hence the uptick in "marketeers"), They've lost/are losing:

  • "Daily Mail" commenters, due to the killing of the British Aid Workers.
  • Military members and their families, due to not wanting to kick off WW3 with Iran for a country far away.
  • Free speech advocates on the right, due to the firing of Candace Owens, which led to the absurd accusation that Christians saying certain phrases are antisemitic.
Scirocco · 03/04/2024 16:02

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 15:50

The current government isn't Israel. I doubt they'll be there in a year, if that.

I hope they aren't. Maybe then we can have something constructive come out of this...

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