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Conflict in the Middle East

Christians in Jerusalem

290 replies

EasterIssland · 19/03/2024 16:59

found this in Twitter today about the current situation of Christians in Jerusalem (West bank and East Jerusalem) and the struggles they’re going through

https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/christians-in-holy-land-desperate-over-lack-of-work-and-upsurge-in-religious-hatred

The situation for Christians is especially desperate as most of them work in the tourism sector, which has been at a standstill since the conflict began.

The source told ACN that for Christians “wearing a cross can get you into trouble.
“Sometimes you have to hide your identity in your own homeland to avoid problems.
“The presence in the area of groups with increasingly radical elements makes our situation even more difficult.”

Christians in Holy Land 'desperate' over lack of work and upsurge in religious hatred - Premier Christian News | Headlines, Breaking News, Comment & Analysis

Christians in the Holy Land are struggling to put food on the table and pay their household bills as increasing conflict and tension plunge the region into unprecedented crisis. That’s according to th

https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/christians-in-holy-land-desperate-over-lack-of-work-and-upsurge-in-religious-hatred

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SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:12

ScrollingLeaves · 20/09/2024 19:09

From Wikepedia about Palestinian Christians
I just thought this was interesting. It is not necessarily linked to any post.

Catholics merged Saints with Roman
and South American pagan gods
so I can understand how an element of compatibility between Muslims and Christians as described here might have come about.

Most Palestinian Christians nowadays see themselves as culturally and linguistically Arab Christians with ancestors dating back to the first followers of Christ. They claim descent from Romans, Ghassanid Arabs, Byzantines, and Crusaders.[9]

That Christian Arabs in Palestine see themselves as Arab nationalistically reflects also the fact that, as of the beginning of the twentieth century, they shared many of the same customs as their Muslim neighbors.

In some respects, this was a consequence of Christians adopting what were essentially Islamic practices, many of which were derived of sharî'ah. In others, it was more the case that the customs shared by both Muslims and Christians derived from neither faith, but rather were a result of a process of syncretization, whereby what had once been pagan practices were later redefined as Christian and subsequently adopted by Muslims. This was especially evident in the fact that Palestine's Muslims and Christians shared many of the same feast days, in honor of the same saints, even if they referred to them by different names. "Shrines dedicated to St. George, for instance, were transformed into shrines honoring Khidr-Ilyas, a conflation of the Prophet Elijah and the mythical sprite Khidr". Added to this, many Muslims viewed local Christian churches as saints' shrines. Thus, for instance, a "Muslim women having difficulties conceiving, for instance, might travel to Bethlehem to pray for a child before the Virgin Mary".[10] It was even not uncommon for a Muslim to have his child baptized in a Christian church, in the name of Khaḍr.[11]

Im afraid this off topic - the subject is just the treatment of Christians in East Jerusalem.

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:11

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:04

The source for the 80% with some self identifying was just wikipedia I think as that's what comes up with 'a quick google'.

You said "many" self identify, which to me implies that you think they aren't Palestinian, or shouldn't be calling themselves Palestinian. I'm not sure why that really matters though, according to the above research they feel that the consequences of the occupation are making them feel that life there is untenable.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:10

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:07

When anyone mentions Israel did....posters immediately go "another jew bashing thread". So are we not supposed to mention Israel's atrocities because they are jewish?

This isn't about the conflict its about treatment of Christian people who are treated awfully in many middle east countries although they appear to be excused whilst Israel isn't. Its odd but predictable. No wonder people support Israel when the middle east is a free for all in bashing the one democracy 🙄

ScrollingLeaves · 20/09/2024 19:09

From Wikepedia about Palestinian Christians
I just thought this was interesting. It is not necessarily linked to any post.

Catholics merged Saints with Roman
and South American pagan gods
so I can understand how an element of compatibility between Muslims and Christians as described here might have come about.

Most Palestinian Christians nowadays see themselves as culturally and linguistically Arab Christians with ancestors dating back to the first followers of Christ. They claim descent from Romans, Ghassanid Arabs, Byzantines, and Crusaders.[9]

That Christian Arabs in Palestine see themselves as Arab nationalistically reflects also the fact that, as of the beginning of the twentieth century, they shared many of the same customs as their Muslim neighbors.

In some respects, this was a consequence of Christians adopting what were essentially Islamic practices, many of which were derived of sharî'ah. In others, it was more the case that the customs shared by both Muslims and Christians derived from neither faith, but rather were a result of a process of syncretization, whereby what had once been pagan practices were later redefined as Christian and subsequently adopted by Muslims. This was especially evident in the fact that Palestine's Muslims and Christians shared many of the same feast days, in honor of the same saints, even if they referred to them by different names. "Shrines dedicated to St. George, for instance, were transformed into shrines honoring Khidr-Ilyas, a conflation of the Prophet Elijah and the mythical sprite Khidr". Added to this, many Muslims viewed local Christian churches as saints' shrines. Thus, for instance, a "Muslim women having difficulties conceiving, for instance, might travel to Bethlehem to pray for a child before the Virgin Mary".[10] It was even not uncommon for a Muslim to have his child baptized in a Christian church, in the name of Khaḍr.[11]

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 19:07

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:04

Doesn't it always. These threads are very predictable. Another bash The Jewish people thread.

When anyone mentions Israel did....posters immediately go "another jew bashing thread". So are we not supposed to mention Israel's atrocities because they are jewish?

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:04

The source for the 80% with some self identifying was just wikipedia I think as that's what comes up with 'a quick google'.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 20/09/2024 19:04

BeretInParis · 20/09/2024 11:55

This could have been a really fascinating thread about the (mis)treatment of Christians in the Middle East and people bringing their experiences and knowledge to bear. However, it's already descended into Israel bad, Gaza bad, Israel good, Gaza good. Please could we look at this in a nuanced way? I'm genuinely interested to find out more about the issue.

And yes of course I'll do more reading on the subject, but I really enjoy the good discourse that Mumsnet can provide.

Doesn't it always. These threads are very predictable. Another bash The Jewish people thread.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 19:02

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 18:54

@SharonEllis sorry the link didn't attach.

https://www.twn.my/index.htm

I'm not sure why you want to seemingly try to separate christians from being Palestinian? Why are you saying 'many are self identifying'? Where is the source for this?

Im not trying to separate Palestinians from being Christan other than than the thread is about Christians, not Palestinians. Some Palestinians are, most aren't, some Christians in Israel are not Palestinian, there is an extraordinary amount of diversity for a small population, with I think 13 Christian churches recognised in Israel and the populatiin having changed with migrants from different parts of the world.These are just facts.

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 18:54

@SharonEllis sorry the link didn't attach.

https://www.twn.my/index.htm

I'm not sure why you want to seemingly try to separate christians from being Palestinian? Why are you saying 'many are self identifying'? Where is the source for this?

Welcome to Third World Network (TWN)

A website containing extensive resources on issues relating to trade, biotechnology, development, Third World, North-South issues, and sells books and magazines online.

https://www.twn.my/index.htm

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 17:22

@merrymaryquitecontrary A quick google reveals that around 80% of the christian population were born in Palestine, so the overwhelming majority.

A quick google doesn't bring this up for me. I can find a reference to 80% of Christians in Israel being Arab with 'many' self-identifying as Palestinian, which is not the same thing.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 16:54

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 15:40

A quick google reveals that around 80% of the christian population were born in Palestine, so the overwhelming majority.

Palestine’s Christian population is dwindling at an alarming rate. The world’s most ancient Christian community is moving elsewhere. And the reason for this is Israel.
The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and apartheid should be unmistakable, as it is evident to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim communities alike.
A study conducted by Dar al-Kalima University in the West Bank town of Beit Jala and published in December 2017 interviewed nearly 1,000 Palestinians, half of them Christian and the other half Muslim. One of the main goals of the research was to understand the reason behind the depleting Christian population in Palestine.
The study concluded that ‘the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians’, who are finding themselves in ‘a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves’.
Unfounded claims that Palestinian Christians are leaving because of religious tensions between them and their Muslim brethren are, therefore, irrelevant.

What is the source for the italicised section?

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 15:40

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:40

Ok so if we're sticking to the rules of the thread can you stick to only what officials have said specifically about Christians (not all of whom are Palestinians) in Jerusalem. Attitudes more widely to Palestinians, or about behaviour of IDF etc are not the subject of the thread, as I understand it.

A quick google reveals that around 80% of the christian population were born in Palestine, so the overwhelming majority.

Palestine’s Christian population is dwindling at an alarming rate. The world’s most ancient Christian community is moving elsewhere. And the reason for this is Israel.
The correlation between the shrinking Christian population in Palestine, and the Israeli occupation and apartheid should be unmistakable, as it is evident to Palestine’s Christian and Muslim communities alike.
A study conducted by Dar al-Kalima University in the West Bank town of Beit Jala and published in December 2017 interviewed nearly 1,000 Palestinians, half of them Christian and the other half Muslim. One of the main goals of the research was to understand the reason behind the depleting Christian population in Palestine.
The study concluded that ‘the pressure of Israeli occupation, ongoing constraints, discriminatory policies, arbitrary arrests, confiscation of lands added to the general sense of hopelessness among Palestinian Christians’, who are finding themselves in ‘a despairing situation where they can no longer perceive a future for their offspring or for themselves’.
Unfounded claims that Palestinian Christians are leaving because of religious tensions between them and their Muslim brethren are, therefore, irrelevant.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:40

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 12:33

The thread was about the state of Christians in Jerusalem, who are suffering as a result of the conflict? They have been killed whilst sheltering in their own churches, this has been widely reported. The state of Israel (as a government, because they are the ones sanctioning the IDF's actions) want rid of Palestinians, the officials have said this time and time again. This is not mis or dis information at all. Many people think this is a muslim vs jewish conflict, when this is not the case, and the christian population are largely forgotten about. As Palestinians, the christians are very much the victims of the occupation too.

Ok so if we're sticking to the rules of the thread can you stick to only what officials have said specifically about Christians (not all of whom are Palestinians) in Jerusalem. Attitudes more widely to Palestinians, or about behaviour of IDF etc are not the subject of the thread, as I understand it.

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 12:33

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:10

Your entire post. The thread is about treatment of christians and people are trying to talk about it by sharing information. You've just lobbed in a generalisation that is patently untrue. You have ascribed something said by an individual to a whole state and its people.

The thread was about the state of Christians in Jerusalem, who are suffering as a result of the conflict? They have been killed whilst sheltering in their own churches, this has been widely reported. The state of Israel (as a government, because they are the ones sanctioning the IDF's actions) want rid of Palestinians, the officials have said this time and time again. This is not mis or dis information at all. Many people think this is a muslim vs jewish conflict, when this is not the case, and the christian population are largely forgotten about. As Palestinians, the christians are very much the victims of the occupation too.

EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 12:30

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:18

Yes, absolutely.

Hence why im focusing in keeping it as Christians in Jerusalem and not anywhere else.

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TooBigForMyBoots · 20/09/2024 12:22

Hostility and violence against Christians has increased in Israel since Netanyahu and his right wing government came to power.Sad

Of course it should be discussed. If people would rather have discussions about the treatment of Christians in the ME, they should start a thread about.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:18

EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 12:17

One of the reasons why it’s important to highlight what Christian’s are going through in Jerusalem is because it’s also their holy land.

Yes, absolutely.

EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 12:17

One of the reasons why it’s important to highlight what Christian’s are going through in Jerusalem is because it’s also their holy land.

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:13

EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 12:05

Just to point out the title of the thread is not about the Middle East but about Jerusalem .
if you feel that there should be a thread about Christians in the Middle East , nothing stops you from opening a new thread

but that wasn’t the aim of what I opened this thread for.

But nevertheless Beret's point about trying talk about this without descending into black and white fortresses is a good one, no? Could we do that?

Liv999 · 20/09/2024 12:13

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 11:18

Israel want to destroy Palestinians, they don't discriminate between colour/religion/creed. They have described them as the cancer that needs to be wiped out.

So true its sad to see what Israel has become, no longer a democratic state

25milesfromhome · 20/09/2024 12:12

but that wasn’t the aim of what I opened this thread for.

Indeed, I think the aim of opening this thread is quite clear.

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 12:10

merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 12:03

Where is the disinformation? I think it's relevant because Israel don't care if the people are muslim, christian or whatever, as long as they are Palestinian they want to eradicate them. Government officials have said this themselves.

Your entire post. The thread is about treatment of christians and people are trying to talk about it by sharing information. You've just lobbed in a generalisation that is patently untrue. You have ascribed something said by an individual to a whole state and its people.

EasterIssland · 20/09/2024 12:05

BeretInParis · 20/09/2024 11:55

This could have been a really fascinating thread about the (mis)treatment of Christians in the Middle East and people bringing their experiences and knowledge to bear. However, it's already descended into Israel bad, Gaza bad, Israel good, Gaza good. Please could we look at this in a nuanced way? I'm genuinely interested to find out more about the issue.

And yes of course I'll do more reading on the subject, but I really enjoy the good discourse that Mumsnet can provide.

Just to point out the title of the thread is not about the Middle East but about Jerusalem .
if you feel that there should be a thread about Christians in the Middle East , nothing stops you from opening a new thread

but that wasn’t the aim of what I opened this thread for.

OP posts:
merrymaryquitecontrary · 20/09/2024 12:03

SharonEllis · 20/09/2024 11:38

This is disinformation and completely unhelpful to the conversation.

Where is the disinformation? I think it's relevant because Israel don't care if the people are muslim, christian or whatever, as long as they are Palestinian they want to eradicate them. Government officials have said this themselves.

BeretInParis · 20/09/2024 11:55

This could have been a really fascinating thread about the (mis)treatment of Christians in the Middle East and people bringing their experiences and knowledge to bear. However, it's already descended into Israel bad, Gaza bad, Israel good, Gaza good. Please could we look at this in a nuanced way? I'm genuinely interested to find out more about the issue.

And yes of course I'll do more reading on the subject, but I really enjoy the good discourse that Mumsnet can provide.