IDF statement on Aid Convoy Stampede

@statsfun It is accurate to say that power imbalances in the region have been dynamic when viewed over a long period. That's accurate to say about any area. Understanding the history is important. The history does not justify or excuse actions taken and allegedly taken.

The world should not accept oppression, potential war crimes, terror attacks, etc., at all. Just as we should not look at the actions of 7/10 and think those should not have consequences, we should not turn a blind eye to the growing body of evidence that the current military action and government strategy appears contrary to international law in a number of ways, and there should be consequences, just as for any government and military force where these concerns arise.

What I've noticed a lot is that it seems very hard for people to just say: the actions and alleged actions of the Israeli government and IDF are horrible and unacceptable. On the few occasions people do say something like that, it's caveated with things about 'but you need to look at the context' or 'but we can't judge harshly'. Why is it so hard for people to just say that it's horrible?

But you are looking at the whole history of the conflict through the lens of the 2024 power imbalance.

There was a huge power imbalance in the other direction in the 1920s, in 1947-48, even in 1967. You are being disingenuous when you frame the whole 100-year conflict as being powerful Israel oppressing a powerless local population.

The previous power imbalance, the threats of annihilation: they are part of the context of the current conflict. It would be unrealistic to expect them not to feed into Israel's perspective.

That is ...

a) not wrong on facts, also ...
b) totally disingenuous in its portrayal, in the way that the description completely blanks out the insane power imbalance and the context of "a nuclear state suffocating an occupied population for decades"

Well quite - that's exactly what I'm saying. That it wasn't sudden.

There's been a whole load of attacks and counter-attacks which connect the riots and massacres of the 1920s to the wall around Gaza today.

Not sure @statsfun I don't think there's a fence with automatic machine guns because Israel suddenly realised there was a horde of hostile suicide bombers right next to where they chose to build a country. I think there's a fence there because a load of people sought refuge there and the fence is to keep them in the enclosure, and, of course, out of their previous homes.

And when I say they set up replacement governments, of course all that means is that they tried to facilitate a slightly more orderly transition of government to existing regional powers. That's what happened with all the countries that were created from what was previously the Ottoman empire (eg Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel).

People left their homes in the Nakba to avoid a war which escalated from attacks and counter attacks between Arabs and Jews going back to the 20s - well before Israel became a state.

Israel denied them a right to return after a civil war (where some of the local Arab population tried to annihilate the local Jewish population - the war of the roads) morphed into an external war (where the surrounding Arab population tried to try to annihilate Israel the day it declared its independence).

So that didn't happen in isolation either.

I think @Newbutoldfather is being quite reasonable in saying that it's a chicken and egg situation.

Although it clearly didn't start with the creation of Israel. It started with the dissolution of the Ottoman empire. None of the different ways the UK, France and UN tried to set up replacement governments in the region worked. The Arab majority of Iraq committed genocide against their minority Kurdish population. The power-sharing Christian/Muslim government in Lebanon didn't manage to prevent the devastating civil war there. All variants of the 2-state solution proposed for Israel over the last 100 years have failed to get past the starting line. I can't see any path which wouldn't have led to war and death. Of course that doesn't mean that they shouldn't try.

You can go back lots of steps and wonder how Gaza became the terrible place it did. Were they behind barbed wire because Israel was operating an apartheid system or were they behind barbed wire because, every time the border opened a bit, suicide bombers came across and murdered Israeli civilians? It is chicken and egg.

I think they were behind barbed wire because they were driven out by the Nakba, homes and property confiscated and they were denied the right of return?

In 72 hours, Israel killed 3 top police officials, 24 social workers, & a prominent tribal leader who all worked on securing aid convoy

thread about it on the link

https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1770499708034613257

And I think that is true

It's a fact that at no point did I want to eradicate an entire population.

In my opinion, both Hamas and the Israeli government/IDF (not the same as saying Palestinians and Israel) have demonstrated desire and intent to do that, but that wasn't what I was trying to say. Which was that it is entirely possible for people to experience loss in such settings and not allow hate to consume them.

@Scirocco ,

‘At no point did I want to eradicate a population in response.’

This kind of implies that this is the Israeli plan. As I have said above, I don’t think that is true.

I'm not sure where I've not been sticking to facts. As far as I'm aware, the things I've mentioned have been widely reported and verified or have been given caveats in my writing of having been reported or alleged or raising concerns. Other than white phosphorus being nightmare-inducing - people might need to take my word for that, or I can get a note from my husband.

I am not suggesting the people are terrible, but the environment is, which it has been for years now. Would you have wanted to live there, even before the current war?!
No . Hamas definitively didn't help neither did the Israeli government, with their total control of what and who could come in and out of Gaza, at all times. They even calculated how many daily calories Palestinians needed in order to survive ( well documented fact) and their "mowing the grass" incursions. To think, some Palestinians have never been allowed to leave Gaza, have never have had the freedom of travelling the world and been able to return home after. Gaza is tiny. Image spending your entire life in 140 square miles. This is worst than being in prison.

I'm sure most of the people in Gaza don't want to be in Gaza either, but they've been displaced and can't go home so what can they do. That's ethnic cleansing for you.

I’d not have mind living there without
Hamas
settlers
israel controlling everything

Appreciating you reading it back but we'll have to agree to disagree I think it is disrespectful
I am not suggesting the people are terrible, but the environment is, which it has been for years now. Would you have wanted to live there, even before the current war?
It is worth adding that Israel have massively contributed to the terrible environment in Gaza that you describe

@Dulra ,

I have read it back and it is fine. Nothing offensive about it. I think you should reread it without prejudgment.

I am not suggesting the people are terrible, but the environment is, which it has been for years now. Would you have wanted to live there, even before the current war?!

I have also said it is pointless trying to apportion blame, as it is chicken and egg.

You can go back lots of steps and wonder how Gaza became the terrible place it did. Were they behind barbed wire because Israel was operating an apartheid system or were they behind barbed wire because, every time the border opened a bit, suicide bombers came across and murdered Israeli civilians? It is chicken and egg.
@Newbutoldfather I find this paragraph extremely disrespectful to the people of Gaza, I don't know if you meant to be but re-read it and remember you are talking about an entire population of people here. Suggesting that their homeland is a terrible place and it is ok that they are behind a barbed wire fence?

@gloriagloria ,

‘However, it is the Israeli Government who are driving the conflict, and it is their job to make objective decisions in the best long-term interests of their country and comply with international law rather than carry out a knee-jerk reaction in retaliation.’

I think you speak of government as if an objective computer rather than red blooded human beings run it, and you assume there is no overlap between the government and the people who personally lost family and friends.

Israel is a tiny country, a mere dot on a map of the Middle East. I suspect no one in government is more than two connections removed from someone who died, was raped or taken hostage in the Hamas atrocity.

I am not well connected to Israel and have lost touch with my distant family there, so there was no personal impact to me. However, I did dine out with friends who lost their friends, and the sheer white faced horror on their faces and inability to have any kind of objective discussion shocked me. I do remember going on a business trip to NY the week after 9/11 (where I did lose two acquaintances who I had been on the phone to that day). All of the New Yorkers I spoke to couldn’t discuss it objectively, and I nearly lost friends comparing the 9/11 terrorists to the IRA (which again impacted me in my youth growing up in London-I had been shopping with family in Harrods the week before the IRA bomb).

It takes time to calm down after that kind of event. It shouldn’t, but it does. I hope and think that we are getting to that point now.

@Scirocco ,

‘some of my friends were killed (quite unpleasantly) by the IDF before 7/10. The first friend I lost to the IDF and settlers was killed in 2003. At no point did I want to eradicate a population in response.’

That must have been awful and I am impressed by your measured and compassionate attitude.

However, in terms of facts, I don’t think the Israelis want to eradicate a population. Their military aim is to eliminate Hamas. Do they care about collateral damage? That is very debatable. Have some IDF units committed war crimes? Almost certainly. Did some Israeli members of parliament make blatantly racist and jingoistic statements in the first few days? Definitely.

Ultimately, though, Israel is a democratic country and has no desire to destroy the Palestinian population. Unless you believe that, in total, the population is racist (I don’t) or the government does not care about support from the U.S or international Jewry, which I think they do.(They will never see another penny from me, for instance, if they did go through with genocide or permanent ethnic cleansing.)

I give the Palestinians the same benefit of the doubt. I like to think that there is a silent majority who don’t embrace the Hamas charter and do believe Jews are equally human and have a right to exist.

For people like you and I to have a civilised dialogue which, to me, is really important, I think we need to stick to broad facts rather than trading anecdotes about war crimes, which have undoubtedly been committed by both sides.

@Newbutoldfather some of my friends were killed (quite unpleasantly) by the IDF before 7/10. The first friend I lost to the IDF and settlers was killed in 2003. At no point did I want to eradicate a population in response.

If you actually listen to and read what the families of hostages and victims want, you'll see that there are a range of views. I'm not one of those families, so I don't want to speak on their behalf, I have no right to do so, but I would encourage you to read more about the diversity of views.

@Newbutoldfather "It is really easy to look at Israel and blame them, but if you ask yourself what you would have done if it were any of your family members affected by 7/10 (I know people in UK who lost family members) it becomes a lot harder."
I agree that many people who had lost loved ones under such shocking circumstances would naturally want vengeance (although as an aside I have been really humbled by the voices of some of those who have suffered the most calling for peace). However, it is the Israeli Government who are driving the conflict, and it is their job to make objective decisions in the best long-term interests of their country and comply with international law rather than carry out a knee-jerk reaction in retaliation.

@Kindatired ,

‘You can’t discuss the provocation of Israel without going back a further step. Just as a fatal heart attack is the terminal event in a heavy smoker with high blood pressure and cholesterol, the atrocities of 7/10 did not come out of the blue.’

I think that this excusing of what Hamas did (and it is kind of excusing it even though you correctly use the word atrocity).

You can go back lots of steps and wonder how Gaza became the terrible place it did. Were they behind barbed wire because Israel was operating an apartheid system or were they behind barbed wire because, every time the border opened a bit, suicide bombers came across and murdered Israeli civilians? It is chicken and egg.

It is incredibly complex and goes back to the creation of Israel as a Jewish state after WW2. Now, I think that was the right thing to do and, to be honest, anyone who doesn’t think Israel should exist at all as a Jewish state, I do judge to be antisemitic.

Once you accept it has the right to exist, you have to ask how it can coexist safely and securely with its neighbours. I personally think the Oslo accord had it about right.

Not sure how we get back there without a much bigger war, though, encompassing Iran and all its proxies in the region and the U.S being much tougher with Israel about the settlements and Jerusalem.

It is really easy to look at Israel and blame them, but if you ask yourself what you would have done if it were any of your family members affected by 7/10 (I know people in UK who lost family members) it becomes a lot harder.

https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1769744356422955431

BBC Reporter notes how Israel has been obstructing & blocking aid from entering Gaza and he concludes: "The message today has been extremely stark and terrifying, that in effect Gazans are starving to death"

This is being enabled and supported by Israels allies in the west.