Conscription in Israel

@israelilefty thank you for your answer

To answer both of your questions: I don't think there is any resentment. Jewish Israelis understand that you can't expect someone with social and familial links to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to fight them (and there would certainly be concerns about loyalty to the army), so I doubt Palestinian-Israeli citizens will be drafted as long as the political situation is how it is. There are however some suggestions that civil service should be extended to Palestinian citizens who should spend a year contributing to their own communities, gaining skills etc. I believe that there is a divide on this issue within Palestinian-Israeli society.

NB The exemption of Arab citizens doesn't apply to all communities, for historical reasons. Druze Israelis and some Bedouins are currently drafted to the IDF, including as combat soldiers.

Apart from the conflicting identities, are there other concerns which have led to the Palestinian citizens of Israel being exempt?

@israelilefty thank you!
Is there any resentment now towards Palestinian citizens of Israel who are exempt from conscription? Is it not seen as unfair?
I know they also don't recieve the bursaries that the religious students who were exempt do, but now they will be the only group who are excused.

@EasterIssland I haven't heard anyone here in Israel suggesting that friendly fire deaths were due to soldiers not being ready to go to war. Friendly fire is unfortunately part of the ugly reality of warfare, and the number of Israeli soldiers killed by friendly fire in the present combat is within a similar range as in other conflicts - around 15% of war deaths of US soldiers are from friendly fire.

Nobody wants to go to war but the vast majority of Israelis are ready to do so if called - on Oct 7 there was more than a 100% response to emergency call-up orders. These are not some kind of gung-ho crazies - I know fathers of preschool kids who work in hi-tech or are musicians who have spent more than half of the time since October doing compulsory reserve duty.

Yes, most students begin much later than in countries where there's no service. It means there isn't really a culture of partying at university - many students are already working or starting a family. NB this doesn't apply to Arab Israelis, nearly all of whom don't go to the army (they are not drafted because of the conflicting identities) so they often go to university at 18.

Uniform is the least issue :) There are already skirt options for religious women in the army - one mum at my kid's preschool is an officer and regularly picks up wearing an army uniform with an ankle length khaki skirt and hair covered with a black headscarf. Obviously this isn't an option for female combat soliders, but there are very few of those and it would be an unlikely choice for a religious woman.

@Parkingt111 they go to university afterwards. So most uni students are older than here (21+). When all the reservists were called up at the start of the war, the start of the university academic year was significantly delayed.

I don’t know if the process means fewer go to university than would otherwise. In my wider family, I think everyone has gone on to some sort of further education post military service, as it is the norm.

@DifferentNameForThisBoard
Thank you for the explanation
If students join straight after school, when do they go to university?
Is it after they have carried out compulsory service? And does the time in conscription then affect the number of students who will eventually apply for university?

A few things to add to help answer some of the questions on this thread:

Firstly, in response to the first question, there have indeed been many soldiers killed, mostly by Hamas, not by friendly fire. Also some deaths from the ongoing conflict with Hezbollah in the north. Every soldier who dies is named in the national press. Not named in the press, are the many, many more who have been seriously wounded in combat.

Every school leaver except, until now, the exempt haredi (ultra religious) Jews does national service. Over the last year of school there is a thorough and intense process where each school leaver goes through various assessments - physical, academic, mental etc - and then applies for different roles within the IDF. The IDF is therefore able to fit roles to those with the best skills. In normal times, school leavers will then do their national service before going on to further study. They do regular camps thereafter, and act as reservists who can be called up if needed (as now). Religious women can and do choose to do community service in lieu of army service.

The Haredi issue with the army is twofold - it’s not just the exposure to the non-religious elements, it’s also that (hard to believe perhaps) some do not recognise and support the current State of Israel as it is too secular in their view. As those up thread have said, their exemption does cause significant resentment. I have family on both sides of this, and it is difficult.

Of course it’s hard for the parents - but it is part of living in Israel and fundamentally believing in Israel’s right to exist and to defend itself. I have a DN going into the army shortly, the family simultaneously accept and dread it. Like everyone with family in Israel I also have cousins who are reservists (in their 30s and 40s, married, with kids) who have had to do their bit in this awful conflict. Very hard on the wives and children, but again, accepted as necessary.

When conscription was compulsory in the states during the world wars and Vietnam war the Amish community were offered non combatant roles along with consciousness objectors so no doubt similar may be facilitated here.

Sorry just read the article and it seems to be just for men

@israelilefty that's interesting
Does the new conscription bill apply to females from the ultra orthodox community too or just males?
Also how would they get around things like uniform for females, who may prefer to wear skirts for example for religious reasons? Would there be enough non combat roles for everyone who must now be conscripted

what would Israel want to change to avoid the deaths?

Drones? Robotic aircraft? Germ warfare? Let in fewer aid trucks and hasten starvation? Nukes?

One of the ways of enforcing it is economic - by ending government subsidies to the educational institutions that young men attend instead of going to the army, if they continue to take students who don't serve.

Hopefully however it can be addressed by compromise; among other things by finding ways for strictly Orthodox men to serve that arouse less fear of them leaving the community. Members of the community do volunteer/work for example in paramedic organizations and similar, so there's clearly some precedent for finding acceptable ways to serve the country. As noted elsewhere in the thread, not all Israeli soldiers are combat soldiers - a lot of roles like education that in other countries might be considered civil service are subsumed into army service (though there is also the option of civil service for those who don't serve in the army).

That's what I meant, a religious communities beliefs/ rules incompatible with the states.

This isn't about secular vs religious - there are a lot of Orthodox Jewish soldiers in the IDF and certain parts of the religious community have the highest rates of conscription. It's about a specific sector of the Orthodox community striving to maintain an insulated way of life.

I saw this, I'm shocked but not surprised - if that makes sense! How they are going to enforce it I've no idea, how do you make someone fight for you if they don't want to? They could all refuse - and accept a prison sentence.

I guess it is the similar issue all nation states face when it comes to secular vs religious society and how the two are not always compatible

This is not the reason. In Judaism it's also forbidden to murder of course, but war and self defence are completely different issues - which I assume is the case also in Christianity. Conscientious objectors (who object to all forms of warfare) are exempt from the draft in Israel, but people are not exempted just because of their opinion about a specific policy (eg they are against the occupation).

However, the reason the ultra-orthodox are against the draft is that the army is a melting pot for secular and religious Israelis, and they are afraid that if the ultra-Orthodox young people go to the army and mix with secular Israelis they will not be able to be as stringent in their religious practice as they would normally, or they would leave their community afterwards. This is really a real concern among ultra-Orthodox parents who value Torah learning above all, but it's very difficult to identify with for the rest of us who see certain young people being exempted from something that others have no choice but to do.

I don't know much about Jewish Orthodox beliefs, but in Christianity it's forbidden to kill, (though that was not observed in the past!) Maybe it's similar amongst Jewish Orthodox belief, which I would think is a valid reason for exemption.

What happens if someone who is called to serve disagrees with the reason behind the war and feels it is made up and refuses to serve or quite simply is a pacifist?

the only advantage of this is that the government then felt compelled to provide affordable government housing for the masses so that every singaporean man would have something to 'defend'. 85% of singaporeans live in government built flats which are subsidised which is why the home ownership rate is 89%.

From the hdb (singapore housing development board) website:

1. In 2022, 98% of 4-room flats launched in non-mature estates were priced below $400,000 (before housing grants) i.e. £235k
2. In 2022, more than 80% of new home owners who collected the keys to their new flats used less than 25% to service their HDB housing loans. This means they could pay their monthly loan instalments using CPF contributions, with little or no monthly cash outlay.
3. The House Price-to-Income (HPI) ratio for BTO flat buyers are generally around 4 to 5. This means that the flat’s price is within 4 to 5 times of the annual household income of the buyers. This is much lower than other major cities in the world (between 9 - 13 times for London, Los Angeles, Sydney; more than 18 times for Hong Kong)

You have to compare singapore to London as its a major financial capital and a city state. salaries are roughly the same too esp as taxes are much lower. I can't imagine something like this happening in the UK ; and I suppose it makes sense; the average British citizen has to sacrifice far less.

I did point this out to my British DH, while he has had to pay full market rate to buy our London flat, his only 'sacrifice' to attain this was having to live with his mum for 3 years which isn't too far off the 2 years(and years of reservist training) that every singaporean male has to serve in the army. And he didn't need to shave his head (all new recruits have to shave their heads)! However I do suppose that not everyone has a mum in London that they can live with rent free! swings and roundabouts I suppose.

We are more free in the UK but we can also expect far less. I do feel sad for israeli men who lay down their lives to defend their country but the government doesn't seem to care very much about the housing crisis in their country or the cost of living.