Anti-Muslim hate has increased since 7-10

I’m not offended in the slightest. I’m not even of any white ethnicity.

I am remarking on what I see as forcing a round peg into a square hole, to argue that people who are pasty can’t experience racism. There is no logic to it.

Yes, white British CAN experience racism while in Britain. Why? Because British is a nationality, not an ethnicity. Consider the racism that northern Irish still face while in England. Consider the racism the English face in Scotland and Wales, and vice versa. Consider the racism that travellers face (they are British and white).

And when discussing a universal human experience like racism, why confine ourselves to one tiny island? Have you no awareness of how almost all white ethnicities do experience racism outside Europe?

Odd you would use socio-economic measures of class and wealth to argue racism doesn’t exist for you if you share a similar skin tone. It’s like you are completely unaware that even the caste system in India is ethnically based and that crude categories of skin tone or geographic continent doesn’t define ethnicity.

Xenophobia isn’t a replacement term for racism. Xenophobia is fear of anyone foreign, no matter what race they are. You can be both xenophobic and racist.

You know what I will never understand, there is so much offence at just being told this word does not describe the experience of white people. The truth is, that white people would never willingly take on systemic, institutional or the levels of individual racism that poc face so why is there such a desperation to use this word? Do you think this is a club and there’s some kind of benefit for joining?

If a white brit gains an accent from living abroad, they can take elocution lessons and lose it. If they get grief for it, that is xenophobia not racism.

If a white brit finds that they are experiencing Islamophobia due to wearing a hijab, they can take it off. That is Islamophobia not racism.

There is no element of choice in racism. Lastly no, white people who are not Brits do not face institutional or systemic racism. The white other group as far as I can recall, has at least better health outcomes and more wealth than white Brits. Again, the prejudice they face is more than likely to be xenophobia.

It is so unhelpful to attempt to amalgamate all these experiences into one group. It makes research harder. It makes it harder to articulate the differences in experiences and it makes it harder for some forms of prejudice to be tackled in their own right.

This is the glaring illogic in some social thought whereby “whiteness” or “accepted as white” equates to wholesale immunity from racism. They then address the cognitive dissonance of the fact that some white ethnic groups can experience racism by pretending they are being “excluded from whiteness” and presto! Can preserve the illusion that white people cannot experience racism.

There is no race that is immune to racism. Race includes any ethnicity, so it is more diverse than skin colour alone.

Anyone of any race can experience racism, although not everywhere.

Racism can occur on different levels: personal, institutional and systemic.

In England, any person of any race can be a victim or perpetrator of personal racism. In England, the only ethnicity immune from racism on an institutional and systemic level are ethnically English white people who present as such (for example an ethnically English white person who sounds or looks nonEnglish can still experience racism in their own homeland, ie foreign accent from living abroad, wearing a hijab as a Muslim convert, etc).

Hi Parking111, sorry I missed your question yesterday where you asked which part of your post wasn't true; it was the following comment:

Because unlike other groups when the attacker is muslim then all the Muslims in Britain are held responsible for it by some

I know first -hand that the Irish Catholic (republican) descendants in the UK suffered stigma and prejudice after the bombings, even though the vast majority did not support the IRA.

Yes, it is hard enough to govern some of our tribal instincts, but when there are so many interests in seeing us fight amongst ourselves, it is ten times harder. I should know, I'm from Northern Ireland.

I think we, humans, can be wary of anyone "not like us". This could be a relic of our cavemen past. Couple this with the way we are brought up ( reinforcing that fear or not) and the society we live in, racism might flourish.
I have never met a child under 10 who was racist. I met children who repeated what they heard at home though.

They genuinely thought that was an entirely reasonable thing to say in conversation. Not even in an argument. Just a normal, bog standard discussion about a normal, bog standard aspect of every day life. Like someone might have a valid point talking about factors contributing to shoddy bin collection services.

This is disgusting! I think for some adults it is too late. They are too entrenched in their views.

I recently got told that, when it comes to people "like [me], Enoch Powell had a valid point."

I mean, where do I even start with addressing that?

@Auvergne63 I think that what you’ve written there makes a lot of sense…

‘I believe racism is a fear reaction, brought on by ignorance.
To combat it, we need to educate, educate, educate.’

I think that as a society we definitely need to do more to educate people, so that this fear can’t be utilised by those with less than admirable motives. It’s upsetting to see this fear being amplified by people like Lee Anderson.

Also just seen this article.

Not sure the current government has much appetite for educating people on this matter?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/27/labour-demands-tory-london-mayor-candidate-susan-hall-apologise-for-islamophobia

@SaffronSpice

So you admit that women do not have equal rights in Islam? That Muslims do not treat women equally?

The poster is saying that is not the subject of this thread, but I am curious. You do realise that quite a few Muslim countries have had female presidents and the USA has never had any, despite women being 50% of the population? Do you think women in the USA need to be liberated from their oppression by bombs, the way the USA and UK like to liberate Muslim women?

There is a lot of ignorance about Islam on this thread and in our society at large.
I think some do not understand the difference between culture and religion and
the right wing press and this government loves to demonise Islam.
I believe racism is a fear reaction, brought on by ignorance.
To combat it, we need to educate, educate, educate.
I taught RE in a multicultural school with Muslim, Christian, Sikh, Hindu and of no faith children. They taught each other about their faiths, they shared food and celebrated their holy days together. If children can do this, why can't we all?

I'm not trying to blame these deaths on anyone, you specifically made the point "Again are all Muslims committing this crime? Or are you using a small amount of crime to blame a whole community. There is a lot of knife crime in my area done by British young kids. Should I blame all British teenagers to be a killers? This is what you currently are doing. " in the context that not all Muslims commit crimes - you are trying to say that British people aren't Muslim or that Muslims aren't British? British is a nationality, Muslim isn't; why are you conflating the two? British people are white, black, brown and every other colour on the spectrum, so please do elaborate on what distinguishes the "British" young kids who are committing this knife crime. Are you trying to say white kids, and if so, why say British kids?

I think that I pretty much agree with everything that you've said, but unfortunately the much of the media, MPs, and those who are vocal, frequently conflate the two and use Islamophobia and racism interchangably.

The United Nations goes a step further in providing a more precise definition of the term.
It states: “Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Muslims that leads to provocation, hostility and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement and intimidation of Muslims and non-Muslims, both in the online and offline world.
“Motivated by institutional, ideological, political and religious hostility that transcends into structural and cultural racism, it targets the symbols and markers of being a Muslim.”
The definition goes on to say Islamophobia is a form of racism, whereby Islamic religion, tradition and culture are seen as a ‘threat’ to western values.
However, the scope and precise definition is a continuing subject of debate. Some scholars dispute it is a form of racism on the grounds that religion is not a race.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/15/islamophobia-racism-definition-free-speech-theresa-may

They are white. The majority in this country is also white. I think they definitely face discrimination on an individual and institutional level but they are accepted as white. On that basis, they’re not usually being marginalised because of their race.

I’ll admit, I don’t know much about them I don’t even think I’ve met a traveller. Jewish people I will concede can face racism. However, when they do they are usually excluded from whiteness. Again, I don’t think all anti-semitism is racism.

Islamophobia is not racism. There is a lot of overlap because by in large Muslims in this country are generally people of colour but it is reductive to say that all Islamophobia is racism.

Firstly, there is an element of choice in religion that there isn’t in race. The white Muslims I know are upfront about downplaying this aspect of themselves. It is horrible that they have to, but it is an option that is available. Whereas Muslims of colour or even those who are not Muslim but are of an ethnicity whose people generally follow Islam, are assumed to be inherently inferior, backward and antifeminist on sight.

"Are these acts only done by Muslim people ?"

I was answering your question.

The attackers were white, or the victims, or both? You know you can be British and not white?

Zero issues with Muslims or anyone else who isn't white british.

Our health service would fall apart without migrants, many of whom will be Muslim.

I'd imagine Lee Anderson would have no issues with a Muslim medic saving his life?

Terrorism can be committed by anyone, its not uniquely a Muslim issue.

And apparently white Muslims can't be marginalised either, according to @MCOut . Perhaps sweeping stereotypes show innate prejudice, when trying to appear righteous.

So the Irish, Travelers, Jews and other white people in England aren't marginalised? Check your privilege.